September 23, 2011

Luke 9.25-27

"For what will a man gain by winning the whole world, at the cost of his true self?

"For whoever is ashamed of me and mine, the son of Adam will be ashamed of him, when he comes in his glory and the glory of his Father and the holy angels.

"And I tell you this: There are some of those standing here who will not taste death before they have seen the kingdom of God."

4 Comments:

At 1:20 PM, Blogger Random Arrow said...

"And I tell you this: There are some of those standing here who will not taste death before they have seen the kingdom of God."

This one’s tough for me. I feel lost. Unbalanced.

Seeing the Kingdom may mean anything. Any aspect of it. At any moment. It’s not the endless sea of it alone that unbalances me. It’s the endless suffering of Jesus unto death as Messiah that’s heartbreaking. It tenderizes me. Disorients me. Breaks up my selfishness.

There’s the ‘life’ after death part of the Kingdom too. Jesus is talking about ‘glory.’ Something beyond death.

How to handle the dissonances? Sure, it's hubris to think I can 'handle' them, but what if I’m looking for the Temple to be home? When the Temple suddenly looks like ground zero? We can build a memorial around a hole in the ground at ground zero, but is that really ‘glory’?

 
At 12:44 AM, Blogger forrest said...

This comment of mine is only marginally relevant-- but I felt led to post this on another site, where I'm not getting much light from anyone there. What I did get-- was my own realization that the world is much weirder than I knew...
--------------
1970: National guard units have been raising hell on various campuses, the air at UC Berkeley has been ugly with tear gas a couple times in the last several days... I am hitchhiking back from Marin, and when I do get a ride the driver drops me at a convenient corner where I unexpectedly find an old friend standing around. He invites me to visit a friend of his... and we smoke a little; it's pretty potent and they are talking about how we need to organize student militias to defend the campuses from the military. I think about this, and I tell them, "No, that's exactly what we need to get away from!" And leave.

Halfway down the block I "feel" a nonphysical kick; I am floating several feet above my body as it goes on walking below me, while a nonvoice is telling me that I'll "never be any use to anybody." At the time this sentiment feels like utter truth, but I go on, visit a cute female I know in the hospital, spend the next several weeks feeling a bit adrift from the world, fending off occasional attacks of fear... and life goes on. A bit apocalyptic that year, but just life.
---

So if there's something out there-- that can kick me in my astral ass-- I can't fit everything into a simple 'physical== world, vs spiritual==God' model of the universe. 'Spiritual' can be messy too!
----

Nuff that-- until I get more of a handle on it! Meanwhile, I'm not sure myself what "the kingdom" looks like... Locally, I'm in a small bubble of it; I mean, there's an order to the world that brings small mercies in the midst of mass weirdness. And when the kingdom finishes 'growing', it'll all be like that?

Does Jesus keep "suffering unto death"? Or is this just what keeps happening to people who keep hammering nails without taking their hands out of the way?

My turn to be confused!!!

 
At 12:54 AM, Blogger Random Arrow said...

Delightful. Hitchhiking. Great response on no-militia. The non-physical kick and the voices – coming from all directions. I’ve felt those feelings accompanied by voices of worthlessness. Or uselessness. I still get them occasionally. Whether personally or in work for others. I usually wash out in a ratio – things I’m relatively useless for and things otherwise – but I’m uniformly useless without the good-side of that non-physical kick. It seems like liminalia are the voluminous and deeper parts of life. The great ocean. The question whether Jesus keeps suffering is perennial for me too. I like the idea of Jesus suffering ‘once’ and for all. Getting it over with. And eating bon-bons and drinking pina coladas on a hammock in Caribbean heaven. I like that until I want empathy! Charles Hartshorne insists he’s optimistic when he incorporates deep and real suffering into God in a process of polar suffering and joy in eternal creation that never ends. Suffering as the cost of allowing choices. Beats me.

 
At 10:44 AM, Blogger forrest said...

Well, I don't float out of my bod all that easily; it took dmt to get me abt a foot upwards once, the only other time it happened. With no unvoiced verbal content.

I was feeling discouraged about what was happening politically, that people I liked wanted to respond with the same old same old... and looking forward to the cute female I'd promised to visit (so far as one can flirt with anyone in for bod-repairs...)

What I was told in an African Religions class ~ 1972: that someone into juju can curse a person, effectively, whether or not they believe in it or know about it-- but that the consensus is that it doesn't work on "a good person." Whether I would have qualified for "good person," who knows.

By your model, this incident would have resulted from me being unconsciously ticked at myself for turning down such a heroic opportunity to get more people killed. By mine, someone enthralled by that role (who had given considerable evidence of magical oomph on previous occasions) sent a blast my way that seriously dis-con-bod-ilated me. "I think I took it back, but it isn't always under voluntary control," as a witch who'd gotten mad enough to give me a 3-day death sentence said about that. (Definitely felt her rage, but hadn't meant to annoy her that much and wasn't really expecting to croak. Around the third day I started feeling sleepy, took a nap in the living room, was woken by a friend: "Come on, Forrest, you can't die here!" These were strange days...)

I no grok "liminalia". 'Threshold' of physical/astral? Not a place I've been much; it made an impression when it did happen. I was afraid that that evaluation I "heard" was coming from God (in his Official Capacity), didn't think so but had to wonder.

That Divine empathy thing... If I think of God as eternally experiencing past, present, future... and all the pain and all the happiness in one long once... my imagination fails. Dunno, dunno.

How much of what's currently flailing about in the world... might be the literal physical/psychical clash of 'powers and principalities,' 'archetypes', etc etc? Might be a simpler "explanation" than "People are just dumb & weird." Would be more like: "dumb, weird, and possessed." Figuratively true enough. Dunno, dunno.

 

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