38 Let anyone who believes in me come and drink! As scripture says, "From his heart shall flow streams of living water." '
39 He was speaking of the Spirit which those who believed in him were to receive; for there was no Spirit as yet because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
-- John 7:37-39 (New Jerusalem)
11 comments:
I love this passage and especially the earthy KJV:
"Our of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
One great thing about it: the literalist must find it impossible.
Of course there are many sources for it in the O.T.
My version says ... ... Jesus stood up and exclaimed, "Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as scripture says: 'Rivers of living water will flow from within him.'"... - the notes say that this can be interpreted two ways - as the water (spirit) flowing from Jesus, or instead, from the believer.
And yes, I think I CAN find a literal meaning for this :-). If the lines mean Jesus, maybe this refers to the wound in Jesus' chest made by the spear as he was crucified, which bled both blood and water? OK, so I'm reaching a little - heh.
Is anyone else a tad surprised by "...for there was no Spirit as yet because Jesus had not yet been glorified."?
Surely there was always a Spirit. Didn't the Spirit of God hover over the deep in Genesis 1 (I admit I haven't gone back to check this quotation). What does John mean in offering this interpretation of what Jesus meant?
Hello Rich.
Yes it struck at me too. But I'm try hard to be the last to comment on a passage every other time -- so said nothing of it.
Does thsi mean that none of the prophets under the Hebrew covenant had the Holy Spirit? Yikes!
Rich and David,
I too, found that phrase confounding. Surely there is always a spirit - unconfined to any particular glorification. Ahha, maybe he is only speaking of this particular glorification of spirit, and not of "spirit" in general in everyone and throughout our ground of Being, which is not of the historical or temporal dimension.
Just a passing guess...
Well without the spirit everyone would just cease to breathe. I have no problem evaluating John as just wrong! at least in the intention that comes down to us today.
Okay. So John is just wrong.
But why is he so insistent? To what end is he willing to make sucxh an assertion.
And it is from John that the best loved metaphors for Quaker spirituality arise -- seed and light. And it is again from John that the witness of a universal saving light comes from.
So where do we go with that?
There goes Larry, picking on literalists, and in swoops Crystal, to set him straight. Crystal, I too, immediately thought of Jesus's wound when Larry shared the translation using 'belly.'
To me, the literalism is that Jesus actually said it, not that his navel would turn into a firehose.
As to the spirit, my understanding from my other study is that the Spirit manifested itself for specific purposes and in different ways throughout the OT. The giving of the spirit in the NT is about the in-dwelling of the spirit within us. It would suggest that there was not necessarily a 'light within' in OT times but that it is a gift of Jesus. Though I'm sure I could find a way to argue around that if put to the test.
I don't think I understand ... Is John talking about the holy spirit that was given to the disciples after Jesus death so that they wouldn't be "orphans"? The Paraclete (advocate) - Pentecost - the little flames over their heads? ...... ... the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us. - Romans 5
Kwak: "Okay. So John is just wrong." That doesn't mean he's complete wrong or completely right. Either-or is foolish about most things.
To me it means John was finite. He made errors, just like I do, and you do. I can't see anything magical-- about it having to be all right or all wrong.
John was a flawed child of God like the rest of them and the rest of us.
EOS.
Alight. So he's wrong in thsi case. But okay in others and we pick an choose.
Why is he wrong here? And where did the error come from. If George Bush is wrong about his missle defense system we don't say -- oh well -- he's a finite human being like the rest of us. We try to get underneath it and say -- where is this coming from.
John did not just say the Holy Spirit starts with Jesus because he believed it. It said it because he thought it was important.
Option 1: John really is a supersessionist. He truly holds that the Jews are human right-offs and the Christian have replaced them in God's affection.
or
Option 2: The spirit is now present in human life in a way that is utterly new and significant. By significant I mean has consequences for how we live.
Why do I harp on this? I am convinced that "spirit" is a Christian code word. "Spirit" designates authority in community. To claim the spirit is to claim legitimate authority. So this odd little phrase that gives us such angst is about church politics.
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