Your erstwhile moderator will be gone this weekend trying to save Åsgard from the trolls.
It is a long weekend in Canada and I'll be in Ottawa up to my eyebrows in Quaker business meetings. Pray for me.
June 29, 2005
Put Away Thy Sword Peter (John 18:1-11)
After Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the Kidron valley to a place where there was a garden, which he and his disciples entered. Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place, because Jesus often met there with his disciples. So Judas brought a detachment of soldiers together with police from the chief priests and the Pharisees, and they came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. Then Jesus, knowing all that was to happen to him, came forward and asked them, "Whom are you looking for?" They answered, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus replied, "I am he." Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, "I am he," they stepped back and fell to the ground. Again he asked them, "Whom are you looking for?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus answered, "I told you that I am he. So if you are looking for me, let these men go." This was to fulfill the word that he had spoken, "I did not lose a single one of those whom you gave me."
Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it, struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear. The slave's name was Malchus. Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its sheath. Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?"
Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it, struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear. The slave's name was Malchus. Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its sheath. Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?"
June 27, 2005
John 17 ... crystal
When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.
... Judas, I guess? I wonser what it means exactly to be "lost"?
I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.
...the evil one ... Ignatius calls him the enemy or the bad spirit ... it seems that most modern christians believe more in a depersonalized evil rather than a personification of it as is mentioned here.
Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
... we are a gift to Jesus :-) like children? You loved me before the foundation of the world - the trinity existing, 3 in 1, a timeless relationship to which we can belong.
... Judas, I guess? I wonser what it means exactly to be "lost"?
I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.
...the evil one ... Ignatius calls him the enemy or the bad spirit ... it seems that most modern christians believe more in a depersonalized evil rather than a personification of it as is mentioned here.
Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
... we are a gift to Jesus :-) like children? You loved me before the foundation of the world - the trinity existing, 3 in 1, a timeless relationship to which we can belong.
Greetings
Lorcan Otway joins us. Welcome to our little group.
When Joe joined us I suggested we all post an intro -- though I think we all know each other from our respective blogs and social networks.
Here's mine:
When Joe joined us I suggested we all post an intro -- though I think we all know each other from our respective blogs and social networks.
Here's mine:
My name is David and I have been blogging since November under the banner of the kwakersaur. This scripture study is a sort of communal spin off from my reflections on the letter of James that started on my blog. I wanted to open it up to the folks who were reading my comments more. The rest : c'est l'histoire.
I'm currently having a crisis of faith identification. I'm still feeling attached to my adopted faith of Quakerism but I've returned to my roots and am worshipping at a local United Church.
I'm married with two cats.
Jesus' Prayer for his Disciples (chapter 17) - Joe G. Comments
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
The underlying point of this passage is the divinity of Jesus. Historically, the Church has used such verses to testify to Jesus' divine nature. As to what it means that Jesus is divine - that he is God incarnate or a divine being lesser status than God, for example, is another issue that I don't believe it completely clarified here.
But, the point is that in this prayer Jesus explains that he was with God, the Father at creation. Because of this unique position that Jesus has with the Father, he intercedes for his followers and all those who follow in subsequent generations to understand that they are one with God just as Jesus is one with Him (God, the Father).
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
The interconnectedness of the relationships: Jesus in one with the God, Jesus is one with his followers (including those who follow him after he is gone from the earth), and these followers are therefore one with God. Thus, although the relationship with Jesus and his Father is unique (at least before the time of creation), it now no longer is because of Jesus' mission on earth. That was the whole point of the "mission": the intimacy that Jesus claimed between himself and God was now available to all those who follow after.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
Hmm. I do experience an intimacy between God and myself. When I think of the Divine as a being in human form, I definitely think of Jesus. It's almost automatic.
And now that I ponder it more, this intimacy, this direct contact with God is what early Friends espoused the most. I think, too, Christians in other denominations use ritual (I'm thinking of Communion here) to represent and help with this direct interaction or awareness of God in our lives.
Of course, there are many other ways to experience this, too: sometimes people experience this in the middle of the day while reflecting on God or while surrounded by the beauty of nature, etc.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
I never thought of Meeting for Worship as a form of Communion. I recently read a statement at Friends United Meeting that Communion for Friends was the waiting on God in silence.
Communion - a few definitions:
Now I wonder if that's why the ritual of Communion is called Communion because of what the word "Communion" means - it's an act of sharing, as in thoughts and feelings, with God and with each other.
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
I realize that for some Christians, the only way, the exclusive way to God is via Jesus. But, I don't believe this. And frankly, I don't think one has to interpret this prayer by Jesus as implying or affirming this exclusivity.
The underlying point of this passage is the divinity of Jesus. Historically, the Church has used such verses to testify to Jesus' divine nature. As to what it means that Jesus is divine - that he is God incarnate or a divine being lesser status than God, for example, is another issue that I don't believe it completely clarified here.
But, the point is that in this prayer Jesus explains that he was with God, the Father at creation. Because of this unique position that Jesus has with the Father, he intercedes for his followers and all those who follow in subsequent generations to understand that they are one with God just as Jesus is one with Him (God, the Father).
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
The interconnectedness of the relationships: Jesus in one with the God, Jesus is one with his followers (including those who follow him after he is gone from the earth), and these followers are therefore one with God. Thus, although the relationship with Jesus and his Father is unique (at least before the time of creation), it now no longer is because of Jesus' mission on earth. That was the whole point of the "mission": the intimacy that Jesus claimed between himself and God was now available to all those who follow after.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
Hmm. I do experience an intimacy between God and myself. When I think of the Divine as a being in human form, I definitely think of Jesus. It's almost automatic.
And now that I ponder it more, this intimacy, this direct contact with God is what early Friends espoused the most. I think, too, Christians in other denominations use ritual (I'm thinking of Communion here) to represent and help with this direct interaction or awareness of God in our lives.
Of course, there are many other ways to experience this, too: sometimes people experience this in the middle of the day while reflecting on God or while surrounded by the beauty of nature, etc.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
I never thought of Meeting for Worship as a form of Communion. I recently read a statement at Friends United Meeting that Communion for Friends was the waiting on God in silence.
Communion - a few definitions:
1. The act or an instance of sharing, as of thoughts or feelings.
2. Religious or spiritual fellowship.
3. A body of Christians with a common religious faith who practice the same rites; a denomination.
4. Communion Ecclesiastical.
a. The sacrament of the Eucharist received by a congregation.
b. The consecrated elements of the Eucharist.
c. The part of the Mass or a liturgy in which the Eucharist is received.
Now I wonder if that's why the ritual of Communion is called Communion because of what the word "Communion" means - it's an act of sharing, as in thoughts and feelings, with God and with each other.
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
I realize that for some Christians, the only way, the exclusive way to God is via Jesus. But, I don't believe this. And frankly, I don't think one has to interpret this prayer by Jesus as implying or affirming this exclusivity.
John 17
I had always considered this chapter the high point, the apex of the book, but on this reading I find that there is only one idea that I find meaningful:
17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"
We are one in the spirit. This idea spreads out to include all mankind, then all creatures, all the earth, the cosmos.
This oneness is what Jesus sought, and it was his last prayer with the disciples before he went to die.
See also Ephesians 4:25.
The oneness was what existed in the beginning before it was broken by our first ancestors. It is what we are going to, the kingdom of God (Heaven).
17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"
We are one in the spirit. This idea spreads out to include all mankind, then all creatures, all the earth, the cosmos.
This oneness is what Jesus sought, and it was his last prayer with the disciples before he went to die.
See also Ephesians 4:25.
The oneness was what existed in the beginning before it was broken by our first ancestors. It is what we are going to, the kingdom of God (Heaven).
david's responses
Truly a lot going on here.
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
I see a metaphysic being set up here -- we stand in relation to Christ as Christ stands to God. We stand before God by standing in Christ. There's a kind of domino effect here. God > Christ > disciples > disciples of the disciples
Can we make the next move? disciples of the disciples > world?
Not on this passage alone -- but elsewhere in scripture I think we can. In the end -- Jesus is leaving this world for the glory he had before the world began we now are in the world in the way he was and draw upon God's grace in the way that Christ did. We are Christ in this world.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
This is one of those passages that is so part of our faith heritage that it is hard for me to read it as if for the first time. On this reading at least I have no new light.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
I'm not even sure what it would mean for this passage to be true to my experience. It is talking about invisible things -- about stuff hiding behind our experience as it were. This is about interpreting the meaning of our experience.
I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one.
The either/or of this passage is not true to my experience. When the world has hated me I'm not so sure it has been because I have been faithful. And I'm not altogether sure I do not belong to this world. I think both God and the world each have their hooks in me.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
I do not have to be afraid of what the world can do to me if I am only faithful to the what Christ has revealed to me and in me. Easier to say than to put into practice.
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
This is my major problem with this passage:
I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
I see a metaphysic being set up here -- we stand in relation to Christ as Christ stands to God. We stand before God by standing in Christ. There's a kind of domino effect here. God > Christ > disciples > disciples of the disciples
Can we make the next move? disciples of the disciples > world?
Not on this passage alone -- but elsewhere in scripture I think we can. In the end -- Jesus is leaving this world for the glory he had before the world began we now are in the world in the way he was and draw upon God's grace in the way that Christ did. We are Christ in this world.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
This is one of those passages that is so part of our faith heritage that it is hard for me to read it as if for the first time. On this reading at least I have no new light.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
I'm not even sure what it would mean for this passage to be true to my experience. It is talking about invisible things -- about stuff hiding behind our experience as it were. This is about interpreting the meaning of our experience.
I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one.
The either/or of this passage is not true to my experience. When the world has hated me I'm not so sure it has been because I have been faithful. And I'm not altogether sure I do not belong to this world. I think both God and the world each have their hooks in me.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
I do not have to be afraid of what the world can do to me if I am only faithful to the what Christ has revealed to me and in me. Easier to say than to put into practice.
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
This is my major problem with this passage:
I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.
June 26, 2005
Jesus' Prayer for his Disciples (chapter 17)
After Jesus had spoken these words, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.
"I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.
"I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
"Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
"I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine; and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost except the one destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.
"I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
"Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
June 24, 2005
Direct Relationship
Main Point: Jesus tells the disciples that they will have a new relationship between themselves and God – a direct relationship: “I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.”
New Light: Jesus is now saying in a forthright manner (admitting that previously his speech was indirect, and figurative) that each seeker has an opportunity to consciously access the same relationship with God that he has experienced. This message, simple and pure, is to me the essence Jesus’ teachings.
Truth: This matches my experience, and is one of the reasons I have been drawn to the Quaker tradition – from experience I know that a direct relationship with God is possible, and indeed, is the only authentic relationship that I can imagine.
Implications: As Jesus says in the final lines of this scripture, no matter where you are, scattered across the world, just as he is not alone because he is with God, likewise we are. Jesus acknowledges, that, yes there will be troubles, but seated within your heart is God, and this is a promise, or rather a certain potential, of great peace. This is not an intellectual matter – though historically God seemed to have been masked behind the facade of an intellectual endeavor. (Perhaps this is still true to some degree...)
Problems: I find the similar problems with these passages as others have mentioned. The way this scripture reads, it is as though a change is occurring – that up until now a direct relationship was not possible, but after the resurrection, if one trusts in Jesus and believes he was sent by God, that person could be promised this direct relationship. As David noted, it is as though a “a genuine transfer of spiritual authority appears to be taking place here.” I would argue that this direct connection with God for everyone has always been possible, indeed is happening, and has always been happening, and has little if anything to do with Jesus. I say this because of Jesus’ teachings – that God is within us, and loves us unconditionally (even the condition of loving Jesus). However, that being said, when one feels in a very real way that mystical love emanating one’s very existence, from this ‘isness’ we call God, our love will not stop – and will encompass Jesus as wholly as everyother lover of God.
New Light: Jesus is now saying in a forthright manner (admitting that previously his speech was indirect, and figurative) that each seeker has an opportunity to consciously access the same relationship with God that he has experienced. This message, simple and pure, is to me the essence Jesus’ teachings.
Truth: This matches my experience, and is one of the reasons I have been drawn to the Quaker tradition – from experience I know that a direct relationship with God is possible, and indeed, is the only authentic relationship that I can imagine.
Implications: As Jesus says in the final lines of this scripture, no matter where you are, scattered across the world, just as he is not alone because he is with God, likewise we are. Jesus acknowledges, that, yes there will be troubles, but seated within your heart is God, and this is a promise, or rather a certain potential, of great peace. This is not an intellectual matter – though historically God seemed to have been masked behind the facade of an intellectual endeavor. (Perhaps this is still true to some degree...)
Problems: I find the similar problems with these passages as others have mentioned. The way this scripture reads, it is as though a change is occurring – that up until now a direct relationship was not possible, but after the resurrection, if one trusts in Jesus and believes he was sent by God, that person could be promised this direct relationship. As David noted, it is as though a “a genuine transfer of spiritual authority appears to be taking place here.” I would argue that this direct connection with God for everyone has always been possible, indeed is happening, and has always been happening, and has little if anything to do with Jesus. I say this because of Jesus’ teachings – that God is within us, and loves us unconditionally (even the condition of loving Jesus). However, that being said, when one feels in a very real way that mystical love emanating one’s very existence, from this ‘isness’ we call God, our love will not stop – and will encompass Jesus as wholly as everyother lover of God.
June 23, 2005
John 16:25-33 L
"the Father himself loves you for loving me, and believing that I came from God." I may say to Ellie "I love you because you make these fabulous meals", but she knows full well that that isn't the only or even the primary reason I love her. If Jesus should have said such a thing, it was meant in the same partial way that I meant the above.
Elsewhere and often Jesus made it very clear that God loves us unconditionally, and not because of any particular belief that we may have.
This passage reminds me of the hardshell preacher who says "Unless you confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is your personal saviour, you are going to hell." John, or the translator of John, is speaking hardshell here and not being true to the spirit of Christ as I know it.
God loves all mankind-- unconditionally. He wants us to be happy and to love one another. That was the primary message that Jesus brought to us from the Father.
-----------------
"Jesus answered them: Do you believe at last?" His use of 'believe' here indicates rather plainly in the context that he is not talking about subscribing to an intellectual proposition but about trust, commitment, integrity, all of which he understood that they would soon betray.
Elsewhere and often Jesus made it very clear that God loves us unconditionally, and not because of any particular belief that we may have.
This passage reminds me of the hardshell preacher who says "Unless you confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is your personal saviour, you are going to hell." John, or the translator of John, is speaking hardshell here and not being true to the spirit of Christ as I know it.
God loves all mankind-- unconditionally. He wants us to be happy and to love one another. That was the primary message that Jesus brought to us from the Father.
-----------------
"Jesus answered them: Do you believe at last?" His use of 'believe' here indicates rather plainly in the context that he is not talking about subscribing to an intellectual proposition but about trust, commitment, integrity, all of which he understood that they would soon betray.
June 22, 2005
John 16: 25 - 33 - Crystal
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
The parts that stand out for me are ... Jesus is leaving ... the relationship between the disciples (us) and God is now complete ... Jesus is concerned about how the disciples will manage once he's gone.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
Jesus (God) is affected by us ... it matters to him if the disciples believe in him ... he doesn't want them to feel bad later, after they've run off and left him to face death alone ... he wants them to find courage and peace after his death.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
I do find Jesus (in prayer) to be vulnerable and affectable and concerned.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
Big time implications. The God I've been getting to know is changed by me as much as I am by him. I know he's supposed to be immutable but nothing changes a person as much as being in love ... I'd like yo believe, as Fr. William Barry writes in one of his books, that God is madly in love with us.
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
There seems to be the implication that God loves us because we love Jesus ... but I think/hope God loves eceryone.
How does this passage agree with or differ from the beliefs or practices of other religious groups in my experience? (OTHERS)
I don't know enough about other belief systems to answer this ... but I do think there are those, like Deists, who thaink God is remote and uncaring ... Yikes! :-)
The parts that stand out for me are ... Jesus is leaving ... the relationship between the disciples (us) and God is now complete ... Jesus is concerned about how the disciples will manage once he's gone.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
Jesus (God) is affected by us ... it matters to him if the disciples believe in him ... he doesn't want them to feel bad later, after they've run off and left him to face death alone ... he wants them to find courage and peace after his death.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
I do find Jesus (in prayer) to be vulnerable and affectable and concerned.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
Big time implications. The God I've been getting to know is changed by me as much as I am by him. I know he's supposed to be immutable but nothing changes a person as much as being in love ... I'd like yo believe, as Fr. William Barry writes in one of his books, that God is madly in love with us.
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
There seems to be the implication that God loves us because we love Jesus ... but I think/hope God loves eceryone.
How does this passage agree with or differ from the beliefs or practices of other religious groups in my experience? (OTHERS)
I don't know enough about other belief systems to answer this ... but I do think there are those, like Deists, who thaink God is remote and uncaring ... Yikes! :-)
david's responses
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
The time is coming when the disciples of Jesus (us?) will be able to pray on Christ's authority (in his name) and God ("the Father") will hear those prayers and respond to them as if Jesus himself had uttered them, for Jesus' sake, and because of the love the disciples have for Jesus.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
What struck me and I had not noticed before was the line:
I do not say that I shall pray to the Father for you, because the Father himself loves you for loving me, and believing that I came from God.
A genuine transfer of spiritual authority appears to be taking place here.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
As I have said before -- I cannot bear witness to this truth in my life. Sometimes -- in moments -- like flashes of lightning on distant horizons. But not consistently. Nor often.
4. How does this passage agree with or differ from the beliefs or practices of other religious groups in my experience? (OTHERS)
There are groups which seem to bear witness to answered prayer often and consistently. This troubles me as they are groups that seem unspiritual in most other aspects of their faith and practice -- though I have met folks of deep and abiding faith amongst them -- so I must not judge too harshly. These are groups -- too use the biblical language -- strong in gifts and lacking fruits. Even though as I said I have known fruit-filled people amongst them.
5. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
John's Jesus tells me -- nay -- promises me that I can expect petitionary prayer to find an audience with God if I but trust in Jesus and believe he was sent by God. Surely the implication is to begin praying on that basis -- or to walk away from the witness of John's gospel.
6. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
Many. Mostly in the implications and in the others questions above.
The time is coming when the disciples of Jesus (us?) will be able to pray on Christ's authority (in his name) and God ("the Father") will hear those prayers and respond to them as if Jesus himself had uttered them, for Jesus' sake, and because of the love the disciples have for Jesus.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
What struck me and I had not noticed before was the line:
I do not say that I shall pray to the Father for you, because the Father himself loves you for loving me, and believing that I came from God.
A genuine transfer of spiritual authority appears to be taking place here.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
As I have said before -- I cannot bear witness to this truth in my life. Sometimes -- in moments -- like flashes of lightning on distant horizons. But not consistently. Nor often.
4. How does this passage agree with or differ from the beliefs or practices of other religious groups in my experience? (OTHERS)
There are groups which seem to bear witness to answered prayer often and consistently. This troubles me as they are groups that seem unspiritual in most other aspects of their faith and practice -- though I have met folks of deep and abiding faith amongst them -- so I must not judge too harshly. These are groups -- too use the biblical language -- strong in gifts and lacking fruits. Even though as I said I have known fruit-filled people amongst them.
5. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
John's Jesus tells me -- nay -- promises me that I can expect petitionary prayer to find an audience with God if I but trust in Jesus and believe he was sent by God. Surely the implication is to begin praying on that basis -- or to walk away from the witness of John's gospel.
6. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
Many. Mostly in the implications and in the others questions above.
The Friendly Bible Study Questions
These are the questions from the Spears' Friendly Bible Study in case anyone wants to cut and paste them fro use in their own postings or in use in their own meditations prior to posting.
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
The Spears also published a follow-up tract for studying Quaker Faith and Practice books and they use the questions but add one more (sandwiched between Truth and Experience):
How does this passage agree with or differ from the beliefs or practices of other religious groups in my experience? (OTHERS)
It may be a useful question to consider given the ecumenical character of this group. There is another website I'm involved with (retired from actually) where an ongoing thread is based upon certain people refusing to use the phrase Christian when referring to Catholics -- even after they have been corrected.
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
The Spears also published a follow-up tract for studying Quaker Faith and Practice books and they use the questions but add one more (sandwiched between Truth and Experience):
How does this passage agree with or differ from the beliefs or practices of other religious groups in my experience? (OTHERS)
It may be a useful question to consider given the ecumenical character of this group. There is another website I'm involved with (retired from actually) where an ongoing thread is based upon certain people refusing to use the phrase Christian when referring to Catholics -- even after they have been corrected.
speaking in plain words
I have been telling you these things in veiled language. The hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in veiled language but tell you about the Father in plain words. When that day comes you will ask in my name; and I do not say that I shall pray to the Father for you, because the Father himself loves you for loving me, and believing that I came from God. I came from the Father and have come into the world and now I am leaving the world to go to the Father.'
His disciples said, 'Now you are speaking plainly and not using veiled language. Now we see that you know everything and need not wait for questions to be put into words; because of this we believe that you came from God.'
Jesus answered them: Do you believe at last? Listen; the time will come -- indeed it has come already -- when you are going to be scattered, each going his own way and leaving me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have hardship, but be courageous: I have conquered the world.
using the New Jerusalem Translation
His disciples said, 'Now you are speaking plainly and not using veiled language. Now we see that you know everything and need not wait for questions to be put into words; because of this we believe that you came from God.'
Jesus answered them: Do you believe at last? Listen; the time will come -- indeed it has come already -- when you are going to be scattered, each going his own way and leaving me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have hardship, but be courageous: I have conquered the world.
using the New Jerusalem Translation
June 21, 2005
John 6:16-24 - Comment by Joe G.
Hello, everyone. This is my first post on friendly scripture study. I prefer to use the questions designed by Friendly Bible Study to help me focus better on the verses. So I will structure my posts around those questions.
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
The main point, which seems to be a re-occurring theme in the gospel of John, is a testimony to who Jesus was/is. The passage demonstrates not only Jesus' foreknowledge of his own death, but of his resurrection, and the "benefits" to those who believe in him after he is gone (ascended into heaven?). His death and resurrection is like that of the pains of labor: at first the process is painful, but soon after, with new life comes great joy and hope for the future.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
While training as a family therapist I was taught the approach of "reframing" a situation. The approach is used when individuals or families appear to be "stuck" in a negative cycle of blame, shame, recriminations, etc. Thus, a little boy who constantly fails in school due to disruptive behaviors (and which causes a great deal of conflict and anguish for the parents) is actually "helping" the usually emotionally distant family unit to come together as a team to help one of their members to cope better.
It seems that Jesus is doing that sort of thing here. Of course, if one believes the traditional theology of the Christian church, then Jesus was referring more to just metaphor. However, he does use a life-affirming, uplifting metaphor of a potentially traumatizing and horrific event: namely, his arrest and crucifixion. I had never noticed how he had "reframed" the entire situation to one of birth and new life to help prepare his followers for impending events.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
Happily, yes. I've had several very difficult situations that appeared to be permanently damaging, but turned into life changing and "reviving" circumstances. A "life from or after death" sort of thing.
Sensing God's presence and the love of others in the midst of those "dying times" helps me to recognize the new life afterwards more readily and easily.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
Hmm. I don't know if I have ever had the prescience of Jesus: that is, to recognize an impending horrible situation as being a prelude to something that will bring new life and new beginnings. Typically, I can only tell afterwards - hindsight is 20/20, that sort of thing.
Or maybe I have as with the death of a dear friend or family member. Despite my deep sadness and pain, I recall that afterwards there is life, even a new life that creates change and transformation (at least for me and possibly for those who have died - I am agnostic about the particulars of post-death).
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
None. I tend to be agnostic and ambivalent regarding some of the specifics of the Nicene creed, etc., and these verses hint to some of that. But, one can also interpret it in other ways that affirms that the pain and loss of today is the process wherein we can and do find renewal, hope, and new life.
1. What is the author's main point in this passage? (MAIN POINT)
The main point, which seems to be a re-occurring theme in the gospel of John, is a testimony to who Jesus was/is. The passage demonstrates not only Jesus' foreknowledge of his own death, but of his resurrection, and the "benefits" to those who believe in him after he is gone (ascended into heaven?). His death and resurrection is like that of the pains of labor: at first the process is painful, but soon after, with new life comes great joy and hope for the future.
2. What new light do I find in this particular reading of this passage of the text? (NEW LIGHT)
While training as a family therapist I was taught the approach of "reframing" a situation. The approach is used when individuals or families appear to be "stuck" in a negative cycle of blame, shame, recriminations, etc. Thus, a little boy who constantly fails in school due to disruptive behaviors (and which causes a great deal of conflict and anguish for the parents) is actually "helping" the usually emotionally distant family unit to come together as a team to help one of their members to cope better.
It seems that Jesus is doing that sort of thing here. Of course, if one believes the traditional theology of the Christian church, then Jesus was referring more to just metaphor. However, he does use a life-affirming, uplifting metaphor of a potentially traumatizing and horrific event: namely, his arrest and crucifixion. I had never noticed how he had "reframed" the entire situation to one of birth and new life to help prepare his followers for impending events.
3. Is this passage true to my experience? (TRUTH)
Happily, yes. I've had several very difficult situations that appeared to be permanently damaging, but turned into life changing and "reviving" circumstances. A "life from or after death" sort of thing.
Sensing God's presence and the love of others in the midst of those "dying times" helps me to recognize the new life afterwards more readily and easily.
4. What are the implications of this passage for my life? (IMPLICATIONS)
Hmm. I don't know if I have ever had the prescience of Jesus: that is, to recognize an impending horrible situation as being a prelude to something that will bring new life and new beginnings. Typically, I can only tell afterwards - hindsight is 20/20, that sort of thing.
Or maybe I have as with the death of a dear friend or family member. Despite my deep sadness and pain, I recall that afterwards there is life, even a new life that creates change and transformation (at least for me and possibly for those who have died - I am agnostic about the particulars of post-death).
5. What problems do I have with this passage? (PROBLEMS)
None. I tend to be agnostic and ambivalent regarding some of the specifics of the Nicene creed, etc., and these verses hint to some of that. But, one can also interpret it in other ways that affirms that the pain and loss of today is the process wherein we can and do find renewal, hope, and new life.
June 19, 2005
Anything you want - you got it :-)
Very truly, I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.
What does it mean to ask for something in another person's name? Is it a blank check for whatever I might want? I'm not sure ...
Suppose that every day, you and your dad go to the AM-PM mini-mart and get a snack. One day, your dad can't go with you, and he says, "Go by yourself, and ask for whatever you want in my name." So you go, and see something you want - a nitrate-tainted mystery-meat weiner (hey, I'm a vegetarian :-) - but the store clerk will not give it to you .... why not? Because you stood in the place of your dad, who was gone, and asked for something "in his name" - asked for something he himself would have requested for you ...... that weiner wouldn't make your joy completer.
Maybe asking for something in Jesus' name means asking for something he would want for you ... something that will align you with what God desires for you. But how can doing what someone else wants, even God, make one's joy complete?
I asked Fr. Marsh once about God's will and he wrote ...
We tend to think of God's will as a blueprint we can follow or ignore, but it can't be like that. God's will has to be as responsive to the moment as ours is. When Ignatius was writing, the whole idea of "will" was rather different than ours ... back then, will was the aspect of the soul associated with love and with desire ... instead of God's will, God's deaire is how I think of it. What is God desiring right now for me?
I think (on my good days) that God's desire for me is the same thing that I most deeply want for myself ... so if I ask for something that sends me in that direction, in J's name, God may well give it to me and make my joy complete :-)
What does it mean to ask for something in another person's name? Is it a blank check for whatever I might want? I'm not sure ...
Suppose that every day, you and your dad go to the AM-PM mini-mart and get a snack. One day, your dad can't go with you, and he says, "Go by yourself, and ask for whatever you want in my name." So you go, and see something you want - a nitrate-tainted mystery-meat weiner (hey, I'm a vegetarian :-) - but the store clerk will not give it to you .... why not? Because you stood in the place of your dad, who was gone, and asked for something "in his name" - asked for something he himself would have requested for you ...... that weiner wouldn't make your joy completer.
Maybe asking for something in Jesus' name means asking for something he would want for you ... something that will align you with what God desires for you. But how can doing what someone else wants, even God, make one's joy complete?
I asked Fr. Marsh once about God's will and he wrote ...
We tend to think of God's will as a blueprint we can follow or ignore, but it can't be like that. God's will has to be as responsive to the moment as ours is. When Ignatius was writing, the whole idea of "will" was rather different than ours ... back then, will was the aspect of the soul associated with love and with desire ... instead of God's will, God's deaire is how I think of it. What is God desiring right now for me?
I think (on my good days) that God's desire for me is the same thing that I most deeply want for myself ... so if I ask for something that sends me in that direction, in J's name, God may well give it to me and make my joy complete :-)
and Jesus explains himself
we should be careful of such -- its likely an indicator that John the gospel writer felt a need to explain Jesus.
But what does John say?
There will be the death and then the resurrection. And the trauma following tehd eath will be like the birth pangs of a new birth and the resurrection will be like taht birth.
In the resurrection the disciples will be able to ask the father for anything in his name and it will be given. Indeed Christ encourages such asking so your joy may be complete.
An interesting phrase that. It was used before:
It will reappear in John 17:13 and in the Johannine letters 1 and 2.
I cannot bear witness to such a faith as this. It has not been fulfilled in my life and experience. Based upon what others here have said -- it is not true of anyone else's here either -- though some may have found other consolations.
But what does John say?
There will be the death and then the resurrection. And the trauma following tehd eath will be like the birth pangs of a new birth and the resurrection will be like taht birth.
In the resurrection the disciples will be able to ask the father for anything in his name and it will be given. Indeed Christ encourages such asking so your joy may be complete.
An interesting phrase that. It was used before:
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. (John 15:10-11)
It will reappear in John 17:13 and in the Johannine letters 1 and 2.
I cannot bear witness to such a faith as this. It has not been fulfilled in my life and experience. Based upon what others here have said -- it is not true of anyone else's here either -- though some may have found other consolations.
New Member
Joe G. author and blogmeister at BeppeBlog has joined the ranks of the baker Street Irregulars.
Welcome Joe. We extend to you the freedom of the meeting to post both blog and comment. SOP here is for me david-william (aka kwakersaur) to post the passage under consideration about twice a week -- generally Sunday and Wednesday. People post their responses as they feel moved -- in full blog posting or in comments to postings and then we respond to each other's responses.
I would suggest we all post personal bios at some point but another invite is pending and it might be well to wait on that.
And again -- welcome and thank-you for joining us.
* * *
P.S. the pending invite is to Lorcan of Plain in the City. Until such time as Lorcan elects to join formally commenting on other's postings are still possible. Only the option of posting a full blog posting is reserved for full membership.
This goes for any lurkers out there. You are certainly welcome to post comments to other's postings or to the scripture passage. And if what you have to say is poignant enough I'm sure someone will use their blogging powers to elevate it to bloghood.
Welcome Joe. We extend to you the freedom of the meeting to post both blog and comment. SOP here is for me david-william (aka kwakersaur) to post the passage under consideration about twice a week -- generally Sunday and Wednesday. People post their responses as they feel moved -- in full blog posting or in comments to postings and then we respond to each other's responses.
I would suggest we all post personal bios at some point but another invite is pending and it might be well to wait on that.
And again -- welcome and thank-you for joining us.
P.S. the pending invite is to Lorcan of Plain in the City. Until such time as Lorcan elects to join formally commenting on other's postings are still possible. Only the option of posting a full blog posting is reserved for full membership.
This goes for any lurkers out there. You are certainly welcome to post comments to other's postings or to the scripture passage. And if what you have to say is poignant enough I'm sure someone will use their blogging powers to elevate it to bloghood.
Sorrow of the Disciples (John 16:16-24)
"A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me."
Then some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying to us, 'A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" They said, "What does he mean by this 'a little while'? We do not know what he is talking about."
Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, "Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, 'A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'? Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy. When a woman is in labor, she has pain, because her hour has come. But when her child is born, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy of having brought a human being into the world. So you have pain now; but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. On that day you will ask nothing of me. Very truly, I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete."
Then some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying to us, 'A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'; and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" They said, "What does he mean by this 'a little while'? We do not know what he is talking about."
Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, "Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, 'A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me'? Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy. When a woman is in labor, she has pain, because her hour has come. But when her child is born, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy of having brought a human being into the world. So you have pain now; but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. On that day you will ask nothing of me. Very truly, I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete."
June 17, 2005
Pending Invites
I have taken the initiative to invite two more folks to join us if their spirits incline in such a direction. I invite them to peruse past comments and consider sagely before diving in.
The two folks in question are:
Lorcan Otway of Plain in the City; and
Joe G. of BeppeBlog
I was also intending to invite Amanda of Of the Best, But Plain but could not locate her email on her profile.
I'm also open to suggestions for additional members and/or functional limits on our group size. These two folks create a certain gender inequity as well as a certain weighting towards Quakes -- if that is of any concern to the Catholics and Episcopalians present.
The two folks in question are:
Lorcan Otway of Plain in the City; and
Joe G. of BeppeBlog
I was also intending to invite Amanda of Of the Best, But Plain but could not locate her email on her profile.
I'm also open to suggestions for additional members and/or functional limits on our group size. These two folks create a certain gender inequity as well as a certain weighting towards Quakes -- if that is of any concern to the Catholics and Episcopalians present.
Holy Spirit
John's words for the Holy Spirit seems to be Advocate and Spirit of Truth.
I like Spirit of Truth some how. Its different enough not have all those accretions hanging of it that Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or Comforter seems to have.
This is new thinking for me. But what would it mean to to say Spirit of Truth instead of Holy Spirit when I talked about faith or Trinity or my spirituality? It seems to shift things. And it runs smack into Pilate's question, What is truth?
And if the Spirit of Truth is also our Advocate -- what might that mean? Or is the Spirit of Truth God's Advocate to us?
I like Spirit of Truth some how. Its different enough not have all those accretions hanging of it that Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or Comforter seems to have.
This is new thinking for me. But what would it mean to to say Spirit of Truth instead of Holy Spirit when I talked about faith or Trinity or my spirituality? It seems to shift things. And it runs smack into Pilate's question, What is truth?
And if the Spirit of Truth is also our Advocate -- what might that mean? Or is the Spirit of Truth God's Advocate to us?
June 16, 2005
John 16:7 L
"if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you;"
Advocate, Counselor, Holy Spirit, Christ Within: these seem to me to be synonyms-- ways of describing the reality of God's presence in the post-Easter world . For us Quakers maybe even 'that of God' within all.
Jesus here was preparing the disciples for his departure; he knew the devastation it would cause and that their faith could survive only to the degree they could be aware of the 'post-Easter God (phrase from Marcus Borg).
The great miracle of Christianity is that it did survive; their faith rose to the occasion; they reached the point where they could walk in the Way (Light) without Jesus. Pentecost happened.
Is there a lesson here for us? Have we reached that point, or can we? The dependence upon the Jesus of history for our inspiration will not carry us beyond a certain point; at some point we must become one of the branches of the vine-- that is to say grow up into maturity as Christians. In my case it's about time.
Advocate, Counselor, Holy Spirit, Christ Within: these seem to me to be synonyms-- ways of describing the reality of God's presence in the post-Easter world . For us Quakers maybe even 'that of God' within all.
Jesus here was preparing the disciples for his departure; he knew the devastation it would cause and that their faith could survive only to the degree they could be aware of the 'post-Easter God (phrase from Marcus Borg).
The great miracle of Christianity is that it did survive; their faith rose to the occasion; they reached the point where they could walk in the Way (Light) without Jesus. Pentecost happened.
Is there a lesson here for us? Have we reached that point, or can we? The dependence upon the Jesus of history for our inspiration will not carry us beyond a certain point; at some point we must become one of the branches of the vine-- that is to say grow up into maturity as Christians. In my case it's about time.
June 15, 2005
Hi
You may notice a new moniker in the member's list.
That might be me. I'm about to the mothball the kwakersaur blog for a summer hibernation and in preparation for that I've changed my on-screen display name to david-william from kwakersaur.
Just thought I'd let you all know.
Now There's the Spirit! (John 16:4-15)
But I have said these things to you so that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you about them. "I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because they do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
June 13, 2005
I am the vine II L (a bit behind)
John Sanford in his Mystical Christianity had a beautiful analysis of chapter 15. He began with a description of the sources: Jeremiah 2:21,Isaiah 5:1ff and Song of Solomon chapter 8, a beautiful love song that perhaps most closely resembles John's use of the figure. Then he showed the obvious parallels in the synoptics and in Romans 11:16ff where Paul referred to the church as a "wild olive tree grafted on" to the original stock, namely Judaism.
The substance of all of these passages is as a symbol of God's relationship with us, and in the N.T. of course through Christ. For me this is of the best of John, where he doesn't report Christ's arguments with the 'Jews' or excoriation of the Jewish hypocrits, but simply shows us the beauty of Christ and the wonder of our relationship to him-- the mysterium (the mystery of our faith).
John S also pointed out the relationship of John's vine and the Dionysian mystery religion. Both focused to a large degree on 'ecstasy'. Ecstasy means to 'stand apart from oneself'. This, in its highest form, is 'union with God'. Baser forms include comfort food (leading to obesity or anorexia), drunkenness, drugs, obsessive sex-- all of these are abortive attempts to achieve what Christ gives us freely if we but ask.
John S finished his discussion of the vine with a large passage from Origen's Commentary on the vine. In it Origen compared the bread of life "which nourishes and makes strong and strengthens the heart of man" with wine, which pleases and rejoices and melts him".
So we have the "sincere milk of the word" for us beginners, the bread of life, nurturing us into maturity, and the new wine, conducting us into the kingdom of God, where all is love. And as the branches of Christ that is what we do for everyone we can.
The substance of all of these passages is as a symbol of God's relationship with us, and in the N.T. of course through Christ. For me this is of the best of John, where he doesn't report Christ's arguments with the 'Jews' or excoriation of the Jewish hypocrits, but simply shows us the beauty of Christ and the wonder of our relationship to him-- the mysterium (the mystery of our faith).
John S also pointed out the relationship of John's vine and the Dionysian mystery religion. Both focused to a large degree on 'ecstasy'. Ecstasy means to 'stand apart from oneself'. This, in its highest form, is 'union with God'. Baser forms include comfort food (leading to obesity or anorexia), drunkenness, drugs, obsessive sex-- all of these are abortive attempts to achieve what Christ gives us freely if we but ask.
John S finished his discussion of the vine with a large passage from Origen's Commentary on the vine. In it Origen compared the bread of life "which nourishes and makes strong and strengthens the heart of man" with wine, which pleases and rejoices and melts him".
So we have the "sincere milk of the word" for us beginners, the bread of life, nurturing us into maturity, and the new wine, conducting us into the kingdom of God, where all is love. And as the branches of Christ that is what we do for everyone we can.
June 12, 2005
John 15: 17-16:4 L
In this section John is dealing with the persecution that his congregation is facing because of their faith in Jesus. He is preparing them for more persecution to come. Jesus has given him this message for them. (It's certainly not an accurate report of something Jesus literally said 2 generations before IMHO.)
Reflecting on this it occurs to me that unless I believe that everything was dictated miraculously by Jesus, I have to evaluate the (often contradictory) passages and decide which of them speaks to our condition. This passage is not one of them, since I don't suffer from any persecution, nor need to condemn anyone. (of course I do have some strong negative feelings about some politicians.)
Reflecting on this it occurs to me that unless I believe that everything was dictated miraculously by Jesus, I have to evaluate the (often contradictory) passages and decide which of them speaks to our condition. This passage is not one of them, since I don't suffer from any persecution, nor need to condemn anyone. (of course I do have some strong negative feelings about some politicians.)
Now Here's Something I had Never Noticed Before
If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
Okay. Until Jesus came and taught and performed miracles people had the excuse of not knowing what God's will for them was. But now they have seen and still rejected God and his messenger. They now have sin.
Preaching and teaching condemns the ignorant as it lifts the ignorance and forces them to choose Light or Darkness.
Doesn't this mean that ministry isn't really doing anybody any favours?
Any other thoughts folks?
John 15: 17-16:4
I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another.
If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world-- therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It was to fulfill the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.'
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning.
I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father or me. But I have said these things to you so that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you about them. "I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.
If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. Because you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world-- therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'Servants are not greater than their master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father also. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. It was to fulfill the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.'
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning.
I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father or me. But I have said these things to you so that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you about them. "I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.
June 10, 2005
The True Vine
John 15: 1-17
I am the true vine…
Here we have a wonderful metaphor of a vine with infinite and fruitful branches. Jesus comforts and encourages the disciples telling them that his voice will go with them, and that he will always be with them, abiding with them even when he is not physically there. Indeed, the manifestation of his teachings has little to do with the presence of his physical body – it will be in the nurturing of the word of God through each and every awakened one that will carry this Light and fruit forward. When Jesus says, “Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me,” I hear God’s voice in the ‘me.’ The consciousness of God must be known and realized in the human form. We, the branches of the vine, must abide in God.
“As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love.” This is so beautiful – a love letter to all of us. This is perhaps the most important message that Jesus has delivered – that we are beloved, not only to Jesus, but to God. This love is so pure, so encompassing, unconditional, eternal, and unchanging. I think it is difficult for us rational types to wrap our minds around this message, a message clearly intended not for our minds, but for our hearts.
I read a meditation that had one begin with imagining the greatest love you have ever felt for another person. “Let that love saturate every cell of your body. Now expand the feeling of love, like an encircling sphere embracing all your friends, family, all your loved ones. Feel you love ever increasing; include in that sphere all the people in your city, then all of your country. Now everything in the world is bathed in that love. The whole earth, the solar system, the far-flung galaxies and island universes – everything floating in this vast sphere of love. Feel, meditate on, merge yourself in that love which permeates and upholds the infinitudes of manifestation – a demonstrate-able heartbeat of God’s bliss…” This is the universal love of Christ, the infinite love of God. This love was manifested in Jesus, as well as Krishna and Buddha, and many other enlightened beings.
As I let my ‘self’ go, and put my heart into this meditation, I feel an ever expanding warmth, moving out in concentric circles; I feel so much loving energy for all seen and unseen. This love overwhelms me with emotions I cannot even find the words to describe. Perhaps sad/joyful comes close, but also it is a tremendous energy, a rousing and compelling opening and expansion of my heart, of my ability to feel with others, to give and to receive love. I sense that this love that Jesus spoke of is uncontaminated, pure, without human flaws of selfishness, lust, or greed. This love seems to be elemental within each of us, only buried by culture, shame, and suffering. This love is, perhaps, our truest nature, our original nature.
The two greatest commandments are these: “Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Matthew 22:35-40
Jesus demonstrated these commandments by loving God so fully with his heart, his concentration, and his strength, and by loving all he came into contact with, his ‘neighbors’. I don't really consider these commandments - as in rules I must obey, or guidelines I must follow. To me they are simply the fruit of the vine, the essential outpouring of reciprocal expression I am compelled to offer in return for God's love, and that is to be "that of God" for others.
Can I do this as Jesus did? Probably not, but I try. As I raise his love into my awareness, I look as though to see the light of Christ within everyone I meet. I increasingly consider others as not separate from myself, but of and a part of who I am also. If I have trouble finding a loving feeling toward another, I imagine them as a small baby, immediately loveable and infused with the presence of God. I bring forth the word, greeting, and salutation, Namasté. With every ounce of my being, I want to love as fully as possible – to love as I imagine Jesus loving.
I admire that Jesus spoke of Friendship – not of servants. Friends are equals, helpful to one and another; Friends notice the Christ-light within one another. The term ‘Friends’ indicates that we choose to love fellow travelers; Friends are not loved simply out of obligation. Friends, in particular spiritual Friends, have the opportunity to demonstrate divine love to one another. I have had this experience of loving spiritual friendships, and it is fruitful, it is truly life changing.
***
This has me wondering: what is the opportunity here for expanding a kind of loving energy to each of us as Spiritual Friends, and to carry this love out in concentric circles to our loves, our Friends, our family, our neighbors, all? What are your thoughts on this?
I am the true vine…
Here we have a wonderful metaphor of a vine with infinite and fruitful branches. Jesus comforts and encourages the disciples telling them that his voice will go with them, and that he will always be with them, abiding with them even when he is not physically there. Indeed, the manifestation of his teachings has little to do with the presence of his physical body – it will be in the nurturing of the word of God through each and every awakened one that will carry this Light and fruit forward. When Jesus says, “Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me,” I hear God’s voice in the ‘me.’ The consciousness of God must be known and realized in the human form. We, the branches of the vine, must abide in God.
“As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love.” This is so beautiful – a love letter to all of us. This is perhaps the most important message that Jesus has delivered – that we are beloved, not only to Jesus, but to God. This love is so pure, so encompassing, unconditional, eternal, and unchanging. I think it is difficult for us rational types to wrap our minds around this message, a message clearly intended not for our minds, but for our hearts.
I read a meditation that had one begin with imagining the greatest love you have ever felt for another person. “Let that love saturate every cell of your body. Now expand the feeling of love, like an encircling sphere embracing all your friends, family, all your loved ones. Feel you love ever increasing; include in that sphere all the people in your city, then all of your country. Now everything in the world is bathed in that love. The whole earth, the solar system, the far-flung galaxies and island universes – everything floating in this vast sphere of love. Feel, meditate on, merge yourself in that love which permeates and upholds the infinitudes of manifestation – a demonstrate-able heartbeat of God’s bliss…” This is the universal love of Christ, the infinite love of God. This love was manifested in Jesus, as well as Krishna and Buddha, and many other enlightened beings.
As I let my ‘self’ go, and put my heart into this meditation, I feel an ever expanding warmth, moving out in concentric circles; I feel so much loving energy for all seen and unseen. This love overwhelms me with emotions I cannot even find the words to describe. Perhaps sad/joyful comes close, but also it is a tremendous energy, a rousing and compelling opening and expansion of my heart, of my ability to feel with others, to give and to receive love. I sense that this love that Jesus spoke of is uncontaminated, pure, without human flaws of selfishness, lust, or greed. This love seems to be elemental within each of us, only buried by culture, shame, and suffering. This love is, perhaps, our truest nature, our original nature.
The two greatest commandments are these: “Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Matthew 22:35-40
Jesus demonstrated these commandments by loving God so fully with his heart, his concentration, and his strength, and by loving all he came into contact with, his ‘neighbors’. I don't really consider these commandments - as in rules I must obey, or guidelines I must follow. To me they are simply the fruit of the vine, the essential outpouring of reciprocal expression I am compelled to offer in return for God's love, and that is to be "that of God" for others.
Can I do this as Jesus did? Probably not, but I try. As I raise his love into my awareness, I look as though to see the light of Christ within everyone I meet. I increasingly consider others as not separate from myself, but of and a part of who I am also. If I have trouble finding a loving feeling toward another, I imagine them as a small baby, immediately loveable and infused with the presence of God. I bring forth the word, greeting, and salutation, Namasté. With every ounce of my being, I want to love as fully as possible – to love as I imagine Jesus loving.
I admire that Jesus spoke of Friendship – not of servants. Friends are equals, helpful to one and another; Friends notice the Christ-light within one another. The term ‘Friends’ indicates that we choose to love fellow travelers; Friends are not loved simply out of obligation. Friends, in particular spiritual Friends, have the opportunity to demonstrate divine love to one another. I have had this experience of loving spiritual friendships, and it is fruitful, it is truly life changing.
***
This has me wondering: what is the opportunity here for expanding a kind of loving energy to each of us as Spiritual Friends, and to carry this love out in concentric circles to our loves, our Friends, our family, our neighbors, all? What are your thoughts on this?
June 08, 2005
Love who? (John 15-L)
As David pointed out, this discourse is addressed to the disciples (actually it began with chapter 14 and goes through chapter 17).
John 15 is a beautiful poem in which grace or the kingdom of heaven if you please is a vine , and to be in the kingdom is to adhere to it. Actually it is a close analogue to Luke 20:9ff, Mark 12:1ff and Matt 20ff and actually has sources in Isaiah 5 and Jeremiah 12. The vineyard is thus a ubiquitous figure for the kingdom. John uniquely makes Jesus the vine. As I understand John, he has identified and equated Jesus (what Marcus Borg called the post-resurrection Christ) with the kingdom of God and set forth here the entrance requirements.
Remember, this is poetic, hence susceptible to multiple interpretations as all poetry is.
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I don't think that Jesus is telling the disciples to love only their own little group, although unfortunately that seemed to become the lodestone in the church rather early in its history-- a tribalism and exclusivism that is the direct opposite of Jesus' intention for us imho.
This has been the misunderstanding that has cursed the Christian Church even to the present, so that (some) Southern Baptists really believe that we are all going to hell. Soon after Constantine took charge of the Church, the 'disciples' started killing those who didn't belong to their group. That misunderstanding (that we are to love only disciples) contradicts every thing that Jesus stood for imho.
John (particularly 1st John) and Jesus as well (according to the synoptics) believed that we relate to people in one of two ways: we love them or we hate them. They were teaching, it seems to me that we labor for the good of other people (love) or we don't (hate).
Certainly John was saying special things to his disciples. We learn to love our group in one way and to love other people somewhat differently; but in both cases it's love.
I loved my three boys, but each of them somewhat differently-- according to their condition as I understood it. To love anyone (disciple or not) is to act in their interest as we see it.
John 15 is a beautiful poem in which grace or the kingdom of heaven if you please is a vine , and to be in the kingdom is to adhere to it. Actually it is a close analogue to Luke 20:9ff, Mark 12:1ff and Matt 20ff and actually has sources in Isaiah 5 and Jeremiah 12. The vineyard is thus a ubiquitous figure for the kingdom. John uniquely makes Jesus the vine. As I understand John, he has identified and equated Jesus (what Marcus Borg called the post-resurrection Christ) with the kingdom of God and set forth here the entrance requirements.
Remember, this is poetic, hence susceptible to multiple interpretations as all poetry is.
-------
I don't think that Jesus is telling the disciples to love only their own little group, although unfortunately that seemed to become the lodestone in the church rather early in its history-- a tribalism and exclusivism that is the direct opposite of Jesus' intention for us imho.
This has been the misunderstanding that has cursed the Christian Church even to the present, so that (some) Southern Baptists really believe that we are all going to hell. Soon after Constantine took charge of the Church, the 'disciples' started killing those who didn't belong to their group. That misunderstanding (that we are to love only disciples) contradicts every thing that Jesus stood for imho.
John (particularly 1st John) and Jesus as well (according to the synoptics) believed that we relate to people in one of two ways: we love them or we hate them. They were teaching, it seems to me that we labor for the good of other people (love) or we don't (hate).
Certainly John was saying special things to his disciples. We learn to love our group in one way and to love other people somewhat differently; but in both cases it's love.
I loved my three boys, but each of them somewhat differently-- according to their condition as I understood it. To love anyone (disciple or not) is to act in their interest as we see it.
Vine/Branches Servants/Friends
First thing I note here is this discourse is directed to followers of Jesus. Promises of connectedness to God through Christ are only being made to Christians here.
The promise is that our relation to Christ is the same as Christ's relation to God and we can therefore relate to God by being in Christ and Christ being in us. That promise only stands as long as we keep Christ's commandment. And the commandment is to love one another -- again the command to love all and to love enemies is not being made here. Instead we are to love others who are likewise in Christ.
The other promise being made is that the disciples have moven from servants (slaves doulos) to friends. The difference? A servant does not know his master's business. God has an enterprise at work in this world and his friends carry out that work as partners in it. The apprenticeship is over. Full partnership requires a Christ-like love that will lay down his own life for his friends.
This answers both my and Crystal's concerns in an earlier posting. I claimed that a Christian could be a cultural relativist and a situational ethicist -- Crystal argued for at least some absolutes in matters of morality.
This passage seems to say the absolutes are not moral laws but the work God is accomplishing in this world. The commandments from God are relative to this work and support it but not relative to our human situation. Score one for Crystal.
But we have to obey before we can know the work to be done. Our knowledge is based not on some universal humans capacity to perceive the good but upon our entering into a particular relationship with God through an apprenticeship of obedience and a self-sacrificing love for others engaged in God's work. Absolute truths which can only be perceived subjectively.
We commit before we know and not the other way round.
The promise is that our relation to Christ is the same as Christ's relation to God and we can therefore relate to God by being in Christ and Christ being in us. That promise only stands as long as we keep Christ's commandment. And the commandment is to love one another -- again the command to love all and to love enemies is not being made here. Instead we are to love others who are likewise in Christ.
The other promise being made is that the disciples have moven from servants (slaves doulos) to friends. The difference? A servant does not know his master's business. God has an enterprise at work in this world and his friends carry out that work as partners in it. The apprenticeship is over. Full partnership requires a Christ-like love that will lay down his own life for his friends.
This answers both my and Crystal's concerns in an earlier posting. I claimed that a Christian could be a cultural relativist and a situational ethicist -- Crystal argued for at least some absolutes in matters of morality.
This passage seems to say the absolutes are not moral laws but the work God is accomplishing in this world. The commandments from God are relative to this work and support it but not relative to our human situation. Score one for Crystal.
But we have to obey before we can know the work to be done. Our knowledge is based not on some universal humans capacity to perceive the good but upon our entering into a particular relationship with God through an apprenticeship of obedience and a self-sacrificing love for others engaged in God's work. Absolute truths which can only be perceived subjectively.
We commit before we know and not the other way round.
June 07, 2005
Love / C
This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.
An interesting thing - there are two different Greek words for love used in these verses. In John 15: 9-13a, the word is agapon, meaning selfless love, the seeking only of the good of the one loved. But in 15; 13b-15, the word is philein, meaning friendship. It’s mutual. Both the lover and the beloved get something out of it. Later, in John 21: 15-19, the two different words for love are used again when Jesus asks Peter three times if he loves him. I read that John's gospel uses these two different words as if they had the same meaning, but I wonder if that's true ... usually they are very different ...
While there are situations where agape and philo seem to be used interchangeably, most notably in John’s writings, in general, agape has become the love of God shown to His creation. In more than one sense of the word, agape becomes grace in action. The point of this is that agape is a verb or noun of action. Men must choose to exercise agape, the same as God has chosen. It is not an emotional or passive position, but one of deciding to love.
To read more, here's a website on translation issues, where you can find the article "Sloppy Agape"
and now everybody's fav -- John 15:1-17
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another.
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.
This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I do not call you servants any longer, because the servant does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from my Father. You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another.
June 05, 2005
stuff
if yer interested there's a weekly scripture blog. it has a 7 part series on verses in scripture pertaining to spiritual healing.
sorry i've been kinda off lately -- i didn't post a new passage today mostly to let folks get the stuff larry posted
i'll post a pasage tomorrow sometime -- likely evening
and a conversation with crystal -- raises a question. everytime somebody posts here i get an email of the posting -- doesn't everyone here -- or is it only me? and if its only me -- why am i getting it -- sorry just confused
marana tha
sorry i've been kinda off lately -- i didn't post a new passage today mostly to let folks get the stuff larry posted
i'll post a pasage tomorrow sometime -- likely evening
and a conversation with crystal -- raises a question. everytime somebody posts here i get an email of the posting -- doesn't everyone here -- or is it only me? and if its only me -- why am i getting it -- sorry just confused
marana tha
June 04, 2005
The Way
John 14: 1-4
“Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me.”
Our lives go up and down like wheels turning; indeed we find the richness in our lives comes from both the downward and dark spiral of sorrow and the upward and light experiences of joy. However, in the center of this wheel, with a firm and steady consciousness, our heart can remain steady, untroubled, no matter what adversity comes. Jesus is pointing to this spot of imperturbability – a kind of knowing or belief or faith that all will be and all is well. Restlessness within the heart distorts one’s sense of self in God – but by stilling the restlessness of the heart, one is more apt to find union with God just as Jesus did.
“In my father’s house there are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.”
I am very fond of these passages in John. For me, Jesus is pointing to the multiple ways of living in and experiencing God – all of which exlemplify living a good life as though in a mansion – the finest of homes. As Jesus has found divinity within him, his message will beckon us to this very same finding – where he is in God, there we may find ourselves. When Jesus says he will come again – this is true, metaphorically and universally true. As Larry so aptly stated, Jesus “comes again in the eternal realm, ever present, and as vivid in our consciousness and awareness as we allow it to be.”
John 14:5-7
“Thomas saith unto him, “Lord, we know not whither thou goest: and how can we know the way?”
“Jesus saith unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my father also; and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.”
Jesus’ way is a universal path, a journey not exclusive to Christianity. This seems true for me because this same metaphor of the way, as a path of transition and transformation, of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being is found in all major religions.
When Jesus says that “I am the way, the truth and the life” I again hear the voice of God speaking through him. If we ‘know’ this to be true, then we know God, also. Jesus repeats this in another form to Philip (John 14: 8-14). It seems we all must hear this in multiple ways to truly understand. Slowly, we must be able to open our hearts to this message, for rationally, from an identification with only our physical realm and self, it is bound to be confusing, and likely to be misinterpreted as Jesus speaking from his ego that he is “the only way”.
“Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me.”
Our lives go up and down like wheels turning; indeed we find the richness in our lives comes from both the downward and dark spiral of sorrow and the upward and light experiences of joy. However, in the center of this wheel, with a firm and steady consciousness, our heart can remain steady, untroubled, no matter what adversity comes. Jesus is pointing to this spot of imperturbability – a kind of knowing or belief or faith that all will be and all is well. Restlessness within the heart distorts one’s sense of self in God – but by stilling the restlessness of the heart, one is more apt to find union with God just as Jesus did.
“In my father’s house there are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.”
I am very fond of these passages in John. For me, Jesus is pointing to the multiple ways of living in and experiencing God – all of which exlemplify living a good life as though in a mansion – the finest of homes. As Jesus has found divinity within him, his message will beckon us to this very same finding – where he is in God, there we may find ourselves. When Jesus says he will come again – this is true, metaphorically and universally true. As Larry so aptly stated, Jesus “comes again in the eternal realm, ever present, and as vivid in our consciousness and awareness as we allow it to be.”
John 14:5-7
“Thomas saith unto him, “Lord, we know not whither thou goest: and how can we know the way?”
“Jesus saith unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my father also; and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.”
Jesus’ way is a universal path, a journey not exclusive to Christianity. This seems true for me because this same metaphor of the way, as a path of transition and transformation, of dying to an old way of being and being born into a new way of being is found in all major religions.
When Jesus says that “I am the way, the truth and the life” I again hear the voice of God speaking through him. If we ‘know’ this to be true, then we know God, also. Jesus repeats this in another form to Philip (John 14: 8-14). It seems we all must hear this in multiple ways to truly understand. Slowly, we must be able to open our hearts to this message, for rationally, from an identification with only our physical realm and self, it is bound to be confusing, and likely to be misinterpreted as Jesus speaking from his ego that he is “the only way”.
June 02, 2005
John 14:1-14
I lost this section if it ever happened, so here is my (King Jim) version and comments:
(IMO John 14-17 is the most meaningful discourse of Jesus we have. We have studied several of his earlier discourses; they all seemed to be directed at his adversaries: the 'Jews', the Pharisees, etc. In them John appeared to be writing a defense of his faith against the hostility he had encountered from the Jewish establishment. But beginning here he speaks directly to his disciples- words of challenge and reassurance and love.)
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(Harvey Cox wrote a book called Many Mansions. In it he pointed out the interesting proximity between verse 2 here and verse 6 below: verse 2 for Harvey [and for me] suggests inclusiveness up to universalism. Verse 6 in contrast suggests the exclusiveness of Jesus' gospel. Perhaps a logical inconsistency, maybe resolved in the eternal dimension. My own resolution is that many Buddhists, etc. have an existential experience of Jesus' Way.)
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(The bold phrase suggests the concurrence of the eternal and the temporal in Jesus' life:
he died, arose, ascended: these are temporal categories; but he comes again in the eternal realm, ever present, and as vivid in our consciousness and awareness as we allow it to be.)
14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(Here Jesus says that God lives in him and does the 'works'; can we not say the same thing?)
14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(This is the great verse that plainly points to the divinization of man.)
14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
(Don't these last two verses simply boggle your mind? I think the coming of the kingdom of God with power waits upon our exercising the faith to believe in and act on these promises.)
(IMO John 14-17 is the most meaningful discourse of Jesus we have. We have studied several of his earlier discourses; they all seemed to be directed at his adversaries: the 'Jews', the Pharisees, etc. In them John appeared to be writing a defense of his faith against the hostility he had encountered from the Jewish establishment. But beginning here he speaks directly to his disciples- words of challenge and reassurance and love.)
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(Harvey Cox wrote a book called Many Mansions. In it he pointed out the interesting proximity between verse 2 here and verse 6 below: verse 2 for Harvey [and for me] suggests inclusiveness up to universalism. Verse 6 in contrast suggests the exclusiveness of Jesus' gospel. Perhaps a logical inconsistency, maybe resolved in the eternal dimension. My own resolution is that many Buddhists, etc. have an existential experience of Jesus' Way.)
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(The bold phrase suggests the concurrence of the eternal and the temporal in Jesus' life:
he died, arose, ascended: these are temporal categories; but he comes again in the eternal realm, ever present, and as vivid in our consciousness and awareness as we allow it to be.)
14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(Here Jesus says that God lives in him and does the 'works'; can we not say the same thing?)
14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(This is the great verse that plainly points to the divinization of man.)
14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
(Don't these last two verses simply boggle your mind? I think the coming of the kingdom of God with power waits upon our exercising the faith to believe in and act on these promises.)
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