John 7:32-36 / Crystal

Jesus then said, "I will be with you a little while longer, and then I am going to him who sent me. You will search for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

... to me, this means Jesus had a good idea that he would soon be arrested and executed - he knew that then he would go to be with the father. The line about searching but not finding ... I don't understand that but maybe it refers to the time between Jesus' death and his resurrection, when he was "dead" and unfindable? Where was he during that time?

It also makes me think of that mysterious time period between Jesus' resurrection and his ascension ... he hung around quite a bit, "seeking and finding" the dispirited disciples, who oddly didn't at first recognise him, and jollying them up.

The Jews said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? What does he mean by saying, 'You will search for me and you will not find me' and 'Where I am, you cannot come'?"

... once again this is an instance of people misunderstanding what Jesus has said, in John. Another point, somewhere I read a commentary that pointed out that the "Jews" never ask Jesus these questions directly but only talk about the issues among themselves, thus never getting any answers. This reminds me of Meredith's post about the difference between bible study and prayer/conversing with/being with God.

Christ and Us/David on John 7:32-36

The scriptures seems to contradict each other on this crucial (going-to-the-cross) issue. Christ Jesus is the only begotten son of God. But we are all called to be children of God. Where he goes we cannot come. But we are called to take up our crosses and follow him.

There are ways of resolving this (perhaps apparent) contradiction. Like the conservatives we can emphasize the divinity of Christ and place our own divinity in brackets as it were and off to the side. Like liberals we can emphasize the divinity of us all and affirm that we are children of God just like Jesus.

Or can emphasize the humanity of both Jesus and us. We can see the differing statements as differing voices within the early church. Affirm the diversity of beliefs. Relativize both the claims of Jesus' sonship and our own.

We can try to reconcile the two. Do some philosophical metaphysics. Jesus: child of God by nature and us: children by calling. Birth vs. adoption. And the metaphors in scripture support this one too.

Maybe none of these work for very long. Maybe I need Christ to be God on Sunday morning so I can be more godly on Monday. Maybe I need to hold all these possibilities inside myself in creative tension.

Sometimes there are no answers.

Where I Go You Cannot Follow (John 7:32-36)

The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering such things about him, and the chief priests and Pharisees sent temple police to arrest him.

Jesus then said, "I will be with you a little while longer, and then I am going to him who sent me. You will search for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

The Jews said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? What does he mean by saying, 'You will search for me and you will not find me' and 'Where I am, you cannot come'?" (NRSV)

* * *

The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? (KJV - AV1611)

Could This Be the Christ?

Now some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, "Is not this the man whom they are trying to kill? And here he is, speaking openly, but they say nothing to him! Can it be that the authorities really know that this is the Messiah? Yet we know where this man is from; but when the Messiah comes, no one will know where he is from."

Then Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple, "You know me, and you know where I am from. I have not come on my own. But the one who sent me is true, and you do not know him. I know him, because I am from him, and he sent me."

Then they tried to arrest him, but no one laid hands on him, because his hour had not yet come. Yet many in the crowd believed in him and were saying, "When the Messiah comes, will he do more signs than this man has done?"

Jesus Teaches at the Temple

(John 7:18) He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

I, too, was stuck by the fact that Jesus said his teaching was not his own - it came from God. Thus he was speaking from a deep inner knowing, and, though he knew scripture, he did not use it to justify his knowing God or for speaking for God. Jesus was not teaching from a need to be calling attention to himself, but rather from a deep spiritual calling to speak from that of God within him. At this point he is speaking from his truest self - "nothing false about him." It wasn't all about him, or as we sometimes joke, "It isn't all about you."

I have loved reading and contemplating these scriptures with you, my friends on this blog. However, for me, while this study of scripture is illuminating and inspirational, I do not sense that scripture study places me in closer connection with God. Spending time in silence, deep listening, quieting myself so that "I" seem to disappear - that is when God feels most present to me. When I am moved to speak about God, I notice again that "I" recedes, and only the message remains. Messages from God seem to have a special energy, a vibration and a certain truth that rings clear.

Going to the Festival in Secret

But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.

It seems Jesus' teachings had become general knowledge but in the absence of tabloid journalism his face had not. He attended the festival apart from family and disciples so he could teach without the prejudices built up by the controversies interpreting his words for him.

He became for a time just another itinerant teacher making squawking sounds at a religious festival. But his words drew attention. And controversy followed.

Then Jesus responds: My teaching is not mine but his who sent me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own.

Can we take this as a guide for reading scripture? Unless we commit to doing God's will -- we will not have it revealed to us. If this were true -- what does that do to our little Bible study? What does it mean for faith?

It takes some thought (and prayer) to stretch the mind around it all. I can know that roses are red without committing to growing them. But the will of God isn't that kind of knowledge. I must commit to doing God's will before I can hear it and know it to be so. Thus, it is impossible to know God's will in the abstract only in the particular. Not do not steal but do not steal this thing now.

And later we will hear:

The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. They will not follow a stranger, but they will run from him because they do not know the voice of strangers. (John 10:3-5)

Jesus at the Festival / Marjorie

About the middle of the festival Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished at it, saying, "How does this man have such learning, when he has never been taught?"

Aha, a scriptural basis for my for my choice of educational philosophies, unschooling. Maybe I'm twisting that a bit, but I love the Biblical reference to the idea that people can learn best on their own and do not need to be 'taught' in order to learn. Of course, Jesus being God may undercut my application of this to my children.

Then Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and there is nothing false in him."

This is a great comfort to me as I try to discern the Lord's leading in my life. Of course, its also a huge responsibility, which is probably why it makes me anxious. It is reassuring to hear that we will know if we truly seek; God is not playing games with us.

"Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why are you looking for an opportunity to kill me?"The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who is trying to kill you?"Jesus answered them, "I performed one work, and all of you are astonished... If a man receives circumcision on the sabbath in order that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I healed a man's whole body on the sabbath? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

Jesus points out the hypocrisy of legalistic religion -- those who technically keep the laws but have no mercy or compassion or love for others, the concepts underlying the laws. The charge against Jesus for healing on the Sabbath is a pretext and everyone knows it. The charge they eventually nail him on (oh, bad pun) is claiming to be God, which is a clear violation of Deuteronomy; for those who don't believe Jesus is God, it is a serious and truthful charge. Such a hard choice -- if Jesus is God, you'd better listen up and do as he says; if he's not God, you'd better not think he is God or you're an idolator. But how does one know? Jesus says above that if you're seeking to do the will of God, you'll know. I guess faith is confidence in what we believe.

The Jews in John

Wherever John was writing the Jews were the enemy. In his account of the Lord's dealings he used the word Jews referring to the Temple authorities. (The synoptics also dealt harshly with the Temple authorities, but they did not call them Jews.)
They were all Jews. The earliest Christians were about 98% Jews.

But when this book got around to being written, the writer had experienced a lot of trouble with the Jews. He therefore used this term of opprobrium. John got the reputation of being anti-semitic, which it still carries in many circles.

Words always carry more freight in peoples' minds than the original intent of the author. The writer did not intend to condemn all the Jews since Jesus' day, but by using the word for the people who fought Jesus and brought about his death, he got credit of it.

Most of the Jews I've known are more like (real) Christians than most of the Christians I've known.

TheJerusalem Festival / Crystal

The Jews were amazed and said, "How does he know scripture without having studied?"

... some time ago there was an interesting discussion at the writer's bbs about whether Jesus was illiterate or not. A note about this line in the NAB reads ... Children were taught to read and write by means of the scriptures. But here more than Jesus' literacy is being discussed; the people are wondering how he can teach like a rabbi. Rabbis were trained by other rabbis and traditionally quoted their teachers

Why are you trying to kill me?"
The crowd answered, "You are possessed! Who is trying to kill you?"

... I guess this means they thought Jesus was crazy (possessed by a demon)?

Jesus answered and said to them, "I performed one work (healing the paralytic) and all of you are amazed ... are you angry with me because I made a whole person well on a sabbath? Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly"

... this seems to be again about the spirit of the law being more important than the letter of the law. I wonder if they were angry with him not just for breaking the law of not working on the Sabbath but also because he was challenging them ... to think outside the rulebook, to be compassionate, to act up for a good cause even if it got you in trouble.

And Jesus Goes to the Party Anyway (John 7:10-24)

But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret. The Jews were looking for him at the festival and saying, "Where is he?" And there was considerable complaining about him among the crowds. While some were saying, "He is a good man," others were saying, "No, he is deceiving the crowd." Yet no one would speak openly about him for fear of the Jews.

About the middle of the festival Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished at it, saying, "How does this man have such learning, when he has never been taught?"

Then Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.

Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and there is nothing false in him. "Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why are you looking for an opportunity to kill me?"

The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who is trying to kill you?"

Jesus answered them, "I performed one work, and all of you are astonished. Moses gave you circumcision (it is, of course, not from Moses, but from the patriarchs), and you circumcise a man on the sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the sabbath in order that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I healed a man's whole body on the sabbath? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

-- John 7:10-24 (NRSV)

The Brothers

John 7:1-9

This exchange between Jesus and his brothers reminds me of something a family might say to a family member that perhaps is embarrassing them, or that they want to confront – as in saying, “if you’re for real, go and prove it somewhere else.” These brothers, who may have reflected a contingent of the population at that time, were challenging Jesus to ‘come out’ so to speak, to show the rest of the world what he was professing. This reads as a taunt given by those close to Jesus who remained skeptical. When Jesus responds, “The right time for me has not yet come…,” he seems to be calculating on the timing of sharing his message to a larger audience. Jesus acknowledges the open hostility toward him at that time. Jesus knows it will be difficult for the masses to really hear him because his message confronts malevolence.

Difficult Teaching?

(60) …his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

Perhaps this teaching is like a Zen Koan – a difficult riddle that is only difficult because of our paradigm, the way we try to figure it out from our narrow perspective. The way John words this entire scripture is a bit of a riddle – I actually think John is being playful with us. And the Gospel of John does entice much rich dialogue in us as we put our heads and hearts together to decipher this profound message.

I imagine Jesus had a twinkle in his eye when he responds (62) “What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before?” (Buddhists would call this ‘your original face’) “The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” This is God’s message – I hear Jesus (God) saying “don’t get distracted by the flesh – the human voice the message comes from.” Jesus’ words reflect the Spirit – and speak of the fundamentally true eternal life – beyond our personalities, our bodies, our “little lives”.

A different lens on John 6:22-59

(26) “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.”

In American culture, there is some pressure to follow the Christian path, to say one is a Christian because of mainstream social acceptability. However, this is a temporal benefit, and in a manner akin to spoiling, does not in itself satisfy and may actually interfere with a sense spiritual closeness to God. Spiritual closeness to God really requires a partaking of a different kind of food – one that is right in front of us if we open ourselves to it. It is in deep listening, in clear seeing, and in opening of the heart to the eternal love Jesus knew so well.

(35) Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.”

I enjoy looking at these statements by Jesus with a wide lens. I ask myself, who is speaking through Jesus? The answer I continually come round to is God. So, it seems to me, it is God saying, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never thirst.” It is the universal God, within the core of all spiritual traditions, that we hunger for, and that nourishes us. Therefore, it could be and was Krishna or the Buddha or other enlightened Ones saying exactly what Jesus said.

The (Un)Faith of Jesus' Brothers

A whole mess of stuff in this short exchange between Jesus and "his brothers".

Firstly, brothers. I deliberately chose the New Jerusalem version -- a Catholic version BTW. The only other Catholic version I could locate on my computer search was Douay-Rheims 1899 (!) and it has the courage to translate it as brethren. It of course implies that there were brothers of Jesus and they were not numbered amongst his disciples. The synoptics record incidents of similar import.

Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him. A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you." (Mark 3:31-32 -- they did not want to enter the house where his followers were gathered--though Luke is kinder and says it was because the crowd was too thick)

When his family heard it, (the gathering of the Twelve and the size of crowds following Jesus and his teachings) they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, "He has gone out of his mind." (Mark 3:21)

Recall also that James is referred to by Paul as the Lord's brother (Gal 1:19).

The traditional interpretation here is these brothers are kinsmen and not necessarily brothers per se. This may actually work--kinship ties and extended family had a strong role to play in ancient life and an obligation to a cousin was as strong as an obligation to a member of the nuclear family. Yet the word is brothers (plural) and the brothers are clearly set at odds with the disciples.

Family interprets Jesus' reluctance to go to Jerusalem for the Feast of Shelters as fear of arrest -- and by implication -- possibly a test of his commitment to the faith he preached. John is quite harsh with Jesus' poor brethren: Not even his brothers had faith in him.

Let's look again at Paul's reference to James the Lord's brother. Scholars date Galatians someplace between the late 40s CE and the mid 50s CE depending on the opine of the academic in question. Our gospel gets dated someplace in the 80s or 90s (with possible additions later). So we have two models of early church leadership, one based on kinship with Jesus and the other based upon discipleship of the Twelve. And in the course of 30-40 years the power shifts from family to discipleship. With hints of strong resentment of family amongst the disciples and vice versa along the way.

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Jesus' Brothers (7:1-9)

After this Jesus travelled round Galilee; he could not travel round Judaea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. As the Jewish feast of Shelters drew near, his brothers said to him, 'Leave this place and go to Judaea, so that your disciples, too, can see the works you are doing; no one who wants to be publicly known acts in secret; if this is what you are doing, you should reveal yourself to the world.' Not even his brothers had faith in him.

Jesus answered, 'For me the right time has not come yet, but for you any time is the right time. The world cannot hate you, but it does hate me, because I give evidence that its ways are evil. Go up to the festival yourselves: I am not going to this festival, because for me the time is not ripe yet.'

Having said that, he stayed behind in Galilee.

-- John 7:1-9 (New Jerusalem)

Disciples' Murmurings / Crystal

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. .... Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

... I read that, for Jews of this time, drinking any blood would have been offensive and drinking the blood of a person would have been unthinkable. The Romans accussed the early christians of being cannibals :-). All of this relates to the eucharist and the idea of the real presence of the risen christ in the host and wine ... stuff I don't completely understand as I slept through much of my RCIA classes. There's a poem attributed to Queen Elizabeth I about this idea and communion ...

'Twas God the Word that spake it,
He took the bread and brake it;
And what the Word did make it;
That I believe and take it.

The Disciples Respond / Marjorie

John 6:60-71 (NRSV)

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?"

I love this, its as if the author is predicting our response. It lets us know that its okay to have these questions and fears, its natural.

But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, "Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But among you there are some who do not believe."

The material is useless -- its really as simple as that but I know that I struggle with what I want from a material point of view. I try to justify not following my spiritual yearnings because I am so materially comfortable and I fear the loss of that. Yet I know that its the spirit that gives life. The struggle and anguish are evidence of fighting against what I know must be done. The words give life, now all I have to do is live them.

For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him.And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father."

The idea of predestination is implicated here. I don't have a problem with this because I don't understand the intersection of the temporal and the eternal. I imagine that presdestination and free will need not be mutually exclusive. This is one of those areas where I simply accept that God is vastly beyond my understanding and I don't even fight it.

Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him.So Jesus asked the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

I love hot-headed, impulsive Peter. Despite all the questions and fears and uncertainties, this is really want it comes down to -- there is no place else to go and there is no need to worry. I always think of the parable from Luke about putting the hand to the plow and not turning back. Sometimes the plow might seem as if it is too difficult, unbearable even, but there is nothing else. Any difficulties or pain it causes is a source of joy, because this is where eternal live is. What joy, what rapture. We know to be quiet, to rest and be still, but we continue to struggle. Its okay, though, because eventually we will quiet down again.

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil." He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him

I am looking forward to discussion Judas Iscariot in the future lessons.

Bread of Life / Marjorie

I am the Bread of Life is one of my favorite hymns, click on Melody in the upper left corner of the screen to hear the tune.

John 6:22-59
...So when the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum looking for Jesus.

We're all looking, aren't we?

Then they said to him, "What must we do to perform the works of God?"
Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
So they said to him, "What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing?

Haven't they seen enough of his work, haven't they had enough signs? I wonder how they could be so dense, so unbelieving. And then I look at myself. What signs have I be given that I discard, wondering whether they are simply coincidences. I complain, I seek deliverance, yet I refuse to whole-heartedly follow the path before me. How clear must the path be? How open the way? I am one of these people. Please, Lord, show me another sign, so I may be certain. How many signs does one need?

... But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

Sure they believe, they followed him, didn't they? Its not enough, is it? They aren't commited, they think they've done enough by looking, but now they've found him and they may not be willing to take the next step.

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day."

The promise and the comfort.

Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

An answer to my question -- how can I know? You can't, not if you're trying to discern by human standards, not if you're going to use only your five senses. Truthfully, they probably already know, they are just looking for excuses, looking for an out.

Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life.

What are the requirements of belief? I believe but I must also follow. What if I'm not certain where I'm being led? If I feel led, am I disobeying by not following? What is my counter-argument? I can find none, all that awaits is patient submission.

Disciple's Response (David's Comments)

Here we find some disciple's having the same sort of difficulties with Jesus' teaching that the Pharisees are depicted as having in the last two sections. They turn away but Peter and the Twelve remain -- though Jesus predicts betrayal and the gospel interprets that as foreknowing of Judas Iscariot's selling him to the Sanhedrin.

Coincidentally I checked out another Quaker scripture blog just before posting and a comment there resonated. Our Friend mentions another's comment that his experience wrestling with the “hard sayings” of scripture can often bring unexpected wisdom. But only if we do not turn away.

That can be one of scripture's most telling powers -- it is an ANET -- an Ancient Near Eastern Text from another world yet witnessing a to God we seek to follow. That very challenge to our assumptions may be a part of the whole point.

Our gospel writer meanwhile is trying to smooth out the rough bits. He wants to reconcile his faith that Christ is the Light made flesh with his betrayal by Judas and so places a confident foreknowledge on Jesus' lips. I wrestle with this -- my view of incarnation is that in Christ Jesus God truly became truly human and that meant becoming subject to uncontrollable events. I don't buy the prescience.

I also note Jesus' faith that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father -- we claim to have chosen this life of faith -- we say we made a decision for Christ -- or we became convinced Friends -- or converted to Catholicism -- yet before we chose God God chose us. For us to have responded to the Spirit working in our lives the Spirit was already there working in our lives.

The Disciples Respond

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?"

But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, "Does this offend you? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But among you there are some who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him.

And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father." Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him.

So Jesus asked the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?"

Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil." He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

-- John 6:60-71 (NRSV)

Bread of Life / Crystal

Bread seems to be a theme for the gospels ... the feeding of the five thousand, the bread of life, the last supper, the breaking of bread with the risen christ with disciples.

So they said to him, "What can we do to accomplish the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent."

... to me this says that Jesus isn't just the finger pointing at the moon :-)

For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

... Reminds me of a line from the opera, Andrea Chenierthe ... I am the god that comes down from the heavens and makes of the earth a heaven - I am love

I will not reject anyone who comes to me

... I find this reassurring.

Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

... Jesus transcends Moses.

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

... the NAB says that the verb used in these verses is not the classical Greek verb used of human eating, but that of animal eating: "munch," "gnaw" - interesting. This reminds me of a science fiction classic, Stranger in a Strange Land, where the main character's followers are instructed to eat him after he is killed :-). These lines foreshadow the last supper and set up the eucharist/communion.

I am the Bread of Life (John 6:22-59)

The next day the crowd that had stayed on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there. They also saw that Jesus had not got into the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. Then some boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. So when the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum looking for Jesus.

When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, "Rabbi, when did you come here?"

Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal."

Then they said to him, "What must we do to perform the works of God?"

Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

So they said to him, "What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"

Then Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always."

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day."

Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

Jesus answered them, "Do not complain among yourselves. No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

So Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever."

He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum.

The Storm at Sea

There are precursors of this story in the Old Testament.

Psalm
107:23 They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
107:24 These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.
107:25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
107:26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
107:27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.
107:28 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
107:29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
107:30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.

The Psalmist has invited a literal as well as a psychological understanding of the scene; it's one of the many times in the psalm where terrible things happen, and they cry unto the Lord, and things work out. This is certaily worth comparing with the story in John.

And then Crystal has already referred us to Job's great verse:
Job 9:8: God "treads upon the crests of the sea."

When Jesus chose to walk on the water at that moment, I can imagine that he was thoroughly familiar with both of those O.T. passages.

It's certainly worth while to look at the synoptic versions of the story. As Marjorie indicated Luke has Jesus in the boat, the storm terrifies the disciples until they awaken Jesus.

Mark (ch 4) gives a similar account.

In Matthew (ch 8) the waves have covered the boat, they awaken Jesus, he upbraids them for their little faith, and quiets the waves. But the passage that most closely resembles John's (ch 14) has Jesus walking on the water. (They thought it was a spirit, but aren't we all spirits; presumably a spirit would have no problem walking on the water.)

Intrepid, impulsive Peter asks for and receives permission to walk to him. Permission granted, and Peter walks-- until his fears get the best of him and he sinks (certainly a parable of my life).

All of these stories represent an effort of Jesus to raise the consciousness (faith) of his slow disciples (there and here).

John Sanford is an episcopal priest/Jungian analyst. He wrote
"Mystical Christianity - A Psychological Commentary on the Gospel of John (1993). In his treatment of the dark sea journey he included a discussion of scholars who "appear to be bothered by the irrational" and literalists, who "sacrifice intellectual scrutiny....that aborts the possibility of seeing more deeply into the meaning of Scripture." (That seems to be a hot topic among our group.) Sanford preferred what he called the 'symbolic' approach.

That judgment in fact seemed to be at the center of his discussion of the passage. He called it a numinous experience and a necessity for the development of a spiritual consciousness, as well as for psychological healing, but avoided and resisted by conventional practioners of both disciplines.

Fear and Reassurance

Another miracle?

When I read this carefully, phrase by phrase, I see something else, and this caused some deep reflection in me. I share this with you:

When evening came – evening is darkness, maybe sorrow.
The disciples went down– down, as in despair?
To the sea - as in awash with tears or trouble? Also, the sea is so vast – you probably cannot even see the other side, you cannot see your way out or across.
Got into a boat – an attempt at keeping oneself afloat.
It was now dark – again the metaphor of darkness, as in absence of light
Jesus had not yet come to them – they did not yet have spiritual provisions that would have been helpful.
The sea became rough because a strong wind was blowing – times of turbulence in our lives
They rowed 3-4 miles – we work hard to try to make it on our own in our little boat, even though a boat is tenuous support in a storm. .
They saw Jesus walking on the sea – Jesus was unaffected by the turbulence or the despair or the fear that the disciples felt.
..and (Jesus was) coming near the boat – we sense Jesus near us particularly when we are overwhelmed with fear and despair.
…and they were terrified – meeting their fears face to face. (I wondered: were the disciples actually afraid of Jesus?)
But he said to them, “It is I, do not be afraid.” How reassuring this sounds when you are feeling afraid. Obviously, Jesus was not afraid, not affected by fear, and felt so confident about this he was able to reassure others.
Then they wanted to take him into the boat – they wanted Him with them, they wanted reassurance, they wanted safety, they wanted to let go of their fears.
and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading– actually this does not say that Jesus physically got into the boat with them, but they immediately went where they had been setting out to go. It does not read that the disciples even had to row any more. Jesus in this sense is numinous, not necessarily physical, and yet this presence reassures and accompanies us, and possibly provides a bridge for us over or through the trouble we have.

The implication in this passage for me was to examine my own fears. What am I afraid of? And does knowing Christ change or alleviate this fear? Or, does fear take over in me when I disconnect with that of God, and the circumstances I find myself in are distressing?

Another area of reflection for me in this was thinking about “fear of God.” I have never subscribed to being afraid of God, but I realized that it was /is actually a common experience to fear God. For example, in the Hebrew Bible, the sea was a mysterious and threatening force of God. The Ancient Hebrew’s stressed God’s mastery over the sea when they spoke of God’s power and authority. In Psalms, they exclaimed, “You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise you still them.” Also, (70) “The sea is God’s, for God made it.” The notion here is that people both fear and are reassured by God. I have never felt this notion of fear of God. Circumstances could really impact this, however, as I'm sure those affected by the Tsunami would attest.

I am curious about the role of reassurance and comfort in God. For me, knowing God’s presence is more like knowing this strength, and a deep sense of warmth, love, gratitute, awe, and clarity rather than reassurance that all will turn out safely. Yet these feelings do fill me with peace. Maybe this is just semantics.

Walking on Water / Marjorie

Last year in Bible study, we covered a similar miracle account in the gospel of Luke, the one where Jesus is with the disciples on the boat but sleeps through the storm until awakened by the terrified disciples and then calms the storm. My co-facilitator explained the miracle as how being with Jesus made it seem as if the storm had ceased (he is a scientist by profession). I was a trifle incensed at the suggestion that Jesus had not actually stopped the storm. However, I don't know when, if ever, I would have drawn the conclusion that Jesus can bring us peace in the midst of turmoil if we trust in him. I suppose that is the limitation of being too literal.

This is a different miracle, or a different account of the same miracle, who knows?

But he said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid."

The Israelites are told repeatedly in the Pentateuch not to be afraid to go in and take the Promised Land from its current inhabitants. Several verses in the book of Joshua are so beautiful to me. "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged for the Lord you God will be with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9. Jesus walks on the water to reach them in their boat, he comes to them in their distress.

Then they wanted to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the land toward which they were going.

I don't know much about this verse, but it certainly sounds as if the disciples' desire to take Jesus with them caused them to immediately reach their destination. That says to me that we'll get where we're going if we have similar hearts.

Walking on Water / Crystal

The sea was stirred up because a strong wind was blowing. When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the boat, and they began to be afraid. But he said to them, "It is I. Do not be afraid."

Job 9:8: God "treads upon the crests of the sea." :-)

To me, this miracle has a few aspects to be considered. It shows Jesus as having command over natural phenomena, like God. It shows the terror we can feel when confronted by the all-bets-are-off nature of suspended "reality". And finally, Jesus says to not be afraid - he's compassionate, and apparently, will intervene for our benefit.

David's Meanderings on Walking on Water

A teacher of mine told us of a theory about this passage and others like Jesus' baptism and the transfiguration. The theory goes that the disciples really didn't understand that Jesus was more than just a wisdom teacher until after the resurrection. At that point Christians started to debate whether Jesus was sent from God, was God, or became divine in his resurrection. These stories are a part of that debate. Stories of Jesus after his resurrection get moved back in time to before his crucifixion in order to argue that Jesus really was divine from birth.

In some ways I find this notion comforting. It says there was a variety of beliefs about Jesus and who he was and what his mission was amongst the first Christians. And that in turn makes the kerfuffle of ideas in a typical Quaker meeting okay.

In another sense that doesn't help me much. Because I don't have the experiences of the first Christians. I only have my own. And that includes a bible with stories in the order that the first Christians gave to me. I can only work with what I got and not what I don't got.

As I mention in my earlier posting on the loaves -- it seems important to all the gospels that stories about miracles on stormy waters be sandwiched with miracles about creating food for hungry people. Miracles happen in the act of sharing. And if we carry them into the storms of this life we will weather them -- for the one we follow walks above the waves.

Walking on the Water (John 6:16-21)

When evening came, his disciples went down to the sea, got into a boat, and started across the sea to Capernaum. It was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. The sea became rough because a strong wind was blowing. When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the boat, and they were terrified.

But he said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid."

Then they wanted to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the land toward which they were going.

Miracles

The gospel of Mark recounts the story of Jesus' disciples panicking as their boat took on water in the midst of a great storm on the sea. Jesus rebukes the storm, and it settles down. He then rebukes the disciples for their lack of faith but with little effect. Mark says something I have found fascinating ever since I first noticed it.

Then he got into the boat with them and the wind ceased. And they were utterly astounded,for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened.

Whether we take the story of the multiplication of loaves and fishes as a physical miracle (the food really did multiply) or a miracle of heart (hungry people sharing what they had) seems to me to miss the point.

Faced with utter destruction on the stormy seas of life, and tempted to despair and to panic, we will keep the faith if we understand the loaves and the fishes. We will lose hard -- find our hearts hardened as pharoah's was if when we do not understand.

Now there's a challenge.

Spiritual Nourishment

Jesus notices that the crowd gathered before him had nothing to eat. He teases Phillip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" though this wasn't a serious question, he said it to test Phillip. Jesus had a different kind of food in mind. What did the crowd hunger for? I believe they, as all humans do to some degree, hungered for spiritual nourishment. And Jesus was able to nourish this huge crowd with very little tangible offering. Indeed, everyone received as much as they wanted.

When we share spiritual nourishment, just as we are doing here, the six of us could feed multitudes. Indeed, what does it matter if it were 5,000 or 10,000? Even if we were just two people, with only two fish (spiritual offerings), we could still share this sustenance with a multitude of people. Without spiritual nourishment, we would all be hungry. Genuine, heartfelt sharing, even if just a small amount, is nourishing. That we do this for one another, and that we offer it to others, is a spiritual gift, and it matters. In this kind of sharing, nothing is wasted.

John goes on from this passage to the “I am” statements attributed to Jesus: (35) “I am the bread of life,” and “ the bread of God …that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” As God fed the Israelites with manna from heaven as they journeyed through the wilderness, Jesus provides bread in the wilderness. The manna, however, did not give life – but what Jesus gave is the “true bread” or "living bread." It could be said that Jesus was/is this bread, and that people consume him, as in take him in to be spiritually nourished. What Jesus provides the multitudes is this living “bread,” as in his living word, providing real and true nourishment.

Jesus will later say, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never be hungry.” “And whoever believes in me will never thirst.” (35)

How beautiful this is – that Jesus’ essential truth is satiating to the multitudes who hunger and thirst for God. Eating and drinking of him this way is to become one with him. What is also so lasting about this rich story is that is as true for the time it was written as it is for us today. We are these masses who are nourished, we are also participating in the sharing of this spiritual nourishment.

Feeding the Masses -- Marjorie

I don't have anything of note to say about this. While I've heard people say that it is a parable of sharing and that the food was not actually multiplied, I believe it was a miracle and a parable. Crystal, I had also heard that the 5,000 only counted the men, so there were probably more than twice as many people there with women and children.

When Jesus realized that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

This struck me, they want to make him king and he withdraws. They want to take him and kill him and he submits (granted, he escaped several times before when his work was not finished).

John 6: 1-16/ Crystal

This is one of the few stories that appears in all four gospels ... interesting.

"There is a boy here who has five barley loaves 6 and two fish; but what good are these for so many?"

... I've read that barley loaves are the food of the poor and that this line harks back to Kings 2: 42-44 ... A man came from Baal-shalishah bringing the man of God twenty barely loaves made from the first fruits, and fresh grain in the ear. "Give it to the people to eat," Elisha said. But his servant objected, "How can I set this before a hundred men?" "Give it to the people to eat," Elisha insisted. "For thus says the LORD, 'They shall eat and there shall be some left over.'"

Jesus said, "Have the people recline." Now there was a great deal of grass 7 in that place. So the men reclined, about five thousand in number.

... hmmm, people are eating Greek/Roman style (reclining)? A book I'm reading, The Questions of Jesus, mentions that there must have also been many women and children here as well, though they were'nt counted, making the number much higher than 5,000.

I agree with Laryy that this story is about sharing and maybe also about the idea that God will provide for us in surprising ways.

Feeding the 5 000 (John 6:1-15)

After this Jesus went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, also called the Sea of Tiberias. A large crowd kept following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing for the sick. Jesus went up the mountain and sat down there with his disciples. Now the Passover, the festival of the Jews, was near.

When he looked up and saw a large crowd coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, "Where are we to buy bread for these people to eat?" He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he was going to do.

Philip answered him, "Six months' wages would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little."

One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to him, "There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish. But what are they among so many people?"

Jesus said, "Make the people sit down."

Now there was a great deal of grass in the place; so they sat down, about five thousand in all. Then Jesus took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted.

When they were satisfied, he told his disciples, "Gather up the fragments left over, so that nothing may be lost."

So they gathered them up, and from the fragments of the five barley loaves, left by those who had eaten, they filled twelve baskets. When the people saw the sign that he had done, they began to say, "This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world."

When Jesus realized that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

True Testimony

My analytic philosophy training kicks in here:

If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies on my behalf, and I know that his testimony to me is true.

We think of a statement (in logic, a proposition or a fact) as true if it corresponds to a real state of affairs. As one professor hammered into our young brains, the book is on the table is true, if and only if, the book is on the table.

But Jesus is talking about testimony and not logical propositions. And he warns us that even is own testimony about himself is not true. Testimonies, it would appear, are true, if they are relatively free from self-interst and if they are confirmed by the testimony of another. There is another who testifies on my behalf.

On the evidence of two or three witnesses the death sentence shall be executed; a person must not be put to death on the evidence of only one witness. (Deuteronomy 17:6)

And I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for one thousand two hundred sixty days, wearing sackcloth. (Revelation 11:3)

But who is the one who testifies on Jesus' behalf? We are yet to get there. But in chapter 8:

Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid. I testify on my own behalf, and the Father who sent me testifies on my behalf. (John 8:16-18)

Speaking from a Friendly perspective, I would say it is the witness of that universal saving Light shining through our own fragile and imperfect human consciences. As we turn to it we can hear it all the better. And it rises up in confirmation.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test! (2 Corithians 13:5)

But then again. Theory is always much more orderly than everyday life. And the sheep do not always recognize the shepherd's voice. And there are beasts, with the appearances of lambs who speak with dragon's voices.

Study and Praise

(39) “You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

To know what the Bible says but fail to apply the inherent implication to our lives misses the living, breathing significance these passages point to. And, just as in the famous Buddhist quote, fingers pointing at the moon are not the moon. I have known people that have memorized the Bible, but do not know God.

I was reading recently about a former nun, Karen Armstrong, and her experiences in a convent. I was so struck by the fact that even there, in a place of nearly 24 hour worship and study and a way of living that is supposed to bring one closer to God, this lifestyle with its rules upon rules interfered with Karen growing closer to God. We each must discern when study and diligence actually interferes or distracts us from our own true communion with God.

(41) “I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.”

Whose praise do we seek? When others praise us, it serves to elevate our ego. Inflated egos very much get in the way of the emptiness and openness that is needed to absorb and allow Christ to live in us. Elevated social status says nothing about one’s spiritual life. In Israel, religious leaders benefited from great prestige, but this meant nothing to Jesus. Jesus was unconcerned about social status or approval. It was the individual experience of loving God, and participating in Godly action that Jesus was concerned about.

I think about political officials, and how, although many claim they are Christian, their philosophy of the use of military power and of condoning the death penalty do not convey Godly action, as the fifth commandment instructs “Thou shalt not kill.” I don't write this to begin any kind of political argument, but just to point out that even though one has garnered praise from men - as in votes or social status, this says little or nothing about ones relationship with God.

Witness to Christ -- Marjorie

I'm not fasting from this blog. Call me a hypocrite, this won't be my first instance of hypocrisy nor my last.

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true." "The works that the Father has given me to complete, the very works that I am doing, testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me."

Godliness and righteousness show themselves, words are unnecessary and are actually not to be trusted.

"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

Sounds like Larry talking about biblidolatry.

"How can you believe when you accept glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the one who alone is God?"

Scathing but true. How often do so many of us seek status and approval from our peers and our culture and refuse to do those things which are more important? How hard it is to reject the culture and peer approval to seek to do what God would have us do. We need sustenance, we need nourishment. Thank God for this community.

"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

Interesting. Perhaps this is to ease the uncertainties of the Jews who are not sure that Jesus is the one. He's telling him that he is the one whom Moses wrote about. I wonder how many others said the same thing. Sometimes it seems so hard to know, so difficult to make the right choice. What if we choose to follow Jesus and break the law? What if we refuse to follow Jesus because we didn't understand and we make a worse mistake? Sometimes it seems that every path is frought with peril. That is when we must be still and listen and have faith.

Witness to Jesus / Crystal

If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot be verified.
But there is another who testifies on my behalf, and I know that the testimony he gives on my behalf is true.
... I would have thought he meant John, but my version of the bible says he means God.

But I have testimony greater than John's. The works that the Father gave me to accomplish, these works that I perform testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me.
... to me, this means that Jesus is letting his acts (the miracles, healings) be his testimony - I'd guess the writer of this passage wants us to believe in them lierally.

You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.
... the NAB says this sentence could also be an imperitive ... "Search the scriptures... ". It would seem Jesus is saying that the scriptures are very important.

Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope.
... is he saying that people have relied on the law of Moses, yet even so, haven't faithfully followed it?

I guess this is supposed to be Jesus speaking (and another writing it down?). Of course, there's no way of knowing if he actually said this or if someone put words into his mouth for their own purpose. If someone has a good rule of thumb for how to decide what of the stuff we're reading is reliable and what isn't (yep, I know - the Jesus Seminar), please enlighten me.

Witnesses to Jesus (John 5:31-47)

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies on my behalf, and I know that his testimony to me is true. You sent messengers to John, and he testified to the truth. Not that I accept such human testimony, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But I have a testimony greater than John's. The works that the Father has given me to complete, the very works that I am doing, testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified on my behalf. You have never heard his voice or seen his form, and you do not have his word abiding in you, because you do not believe him whom he has sent.

"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; if another comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe when you accept glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the one who alone is God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But if you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

A Question from Marjorie

Hello friends,

I would like your opinion, please. I don't usually give up things for Lent, but I feel moved to give up blogging -- both posting on my blogs and reading and commenting on other blogs. Since this is something I really don't want to do, I figure it is probably something that I must do. As a member of a team on this blog, I wanted to ask you what you think. I can see a few reasons for excepting this blog from my Lenten fast. Part of me feels that as a team member, I should continue to blog here through Lent. On the other hand, I haven't been pulling my weight recently, so my temporary absence might not even be noticeable. Then again, maybe by giving up blogging otherwise, I would be more active on this blog during Lent, which might be a good place for me to be.

Regardless, I will be using the computer and checking e-mail, so anyone who wants to contact me may do so.

I appreciate your opinions on this matter.

P.S. Lent begins this Wednesday, February 9 and continues until Easter on March 27 (or does it end Palm Sunday? I'm counting on you here, Crystal, Catholics usually know all the ins and outs of Lent ;-) )

John 5:19-30 Jesus' claims...

In this gospel the portrait of Jesus claims that he is one with God, the actual revelation of God. In these passages, Jesus shows that like God, Jesus is able to raise those who are spiritually dead to life. He is the word and wisdom of God embodied in a human life. Jesus shows us what it is like to live a life full of God, and filled with spirit. Jesus is not less than God, he is as God is. However, Jesus does not say that God is only known through him.

It was interesting to me to note that Jesus identifies that God does not judge, but Jesus does (22). I am confused - if Jesus does as God does, why this difference? Jesus says it has something to do with "...all honoring the Son, just as they honor the Father." (23) Jesus also says that God gave him this authority (27), and that he judges to please God (30). Judgement has a very negative connotation for me - and I have always sensed that a loving God is not judgemental - that everything that happens is of and by God to begin with, and is therefore, pure and perfect.

Sorry for being absent

(& thank you Mr kwakersaur for your email the other day.)

I hope to be back here in good form soon. I got myself involved in an impromptu study of the references to "waiting worship" in the Bible and it developed into a full blown I don't know what... something!

I started having some of the most remarkable experiences and openings during meetings it is hard to put into words, but I am certain I tapped into the "old school" and found something. It isn't anything all the old-line Friends haven't told us about from days gone by and it isn't something that is world-changing; but I have come to know waiting worship as I never have before and I'm pretty sure it is connected to what I was studying.

The findings and experiences will be put up at my blog over time, and I also can't wait to re-engage here as well.

In the meantime - here's my 15 minutes of fame - this month's Friends Journal published my letter to the Forum titled "Instructing Each Other." Well that's about as famous as I'm likely to get!

Be back soon!

John 5:19-30 (by Larry)

I realize that this post is very unorthodox, and hope that it doesn't antagonize anyone:

All that is said here about the Son of God applies equally to you and me-- to the degree that we are fully confirmed in our identity. By that standard to whom does it fully apply? Perhaps to no one else, but don't discount that.

What I'm trying to say is that we are all Christ, to the degree that we can carry that character, when "we can do nothing but what we see the father doing".

The father will (and has) shown us greater works than we have seen heretofore. Jesus said you will do greater works than I've done (further in John!)

We give life to some, and we also judge. (Paul said, don't you know you will judge angels?).
Those who do not honor us (when we're godly), do not honor the Father, who sent us.

If our word is true, any who hear our word have the same reward that we did hearing Jesus' word.

Like Jesus we can do nothing on our own.

Friends, don't take these verses simply literally; that's bibliolatry; worship the living God and take his written words as pointing to spiritual truth.

Well that's it; I'm done. Jesus taught us to be perfect, and that should (must) be our intention. As he was perfect, we are supposed to be likewise.

Authority of the Son/Child of God (John 5:19-30)

Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise.The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

"Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

"I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Distance, Faith, Desire, and Rules

Re: John 4: 46-54

I will confess that these miracle stories challenge me. I just don’t know how to think about them. But here are a few random thoughts…

When Jesus healed a government official’s son, the son was 20 miles away – yet was healed as though distance did not matter. This speaks to the ultimate dimension rather than our usual historical dimension, as Thich Nhat Hanh wrote about. In the ultimate dimension, distance is meaningless. Jesus can be with us, right here, right now.

As time passed in this story, the official’s faith grew. First he believed enough to ask for help. Then “the official took Jesus at his word,” indicating that he believed Jesus’ assurance that his son would live. Then, “He and all his household believed.” This faith is growing in the official, and indeed, spreading. This happens when we involve ourselves in spiritual action.

Re: John 5:1-18

Like Crystal, I was moved by the question, “Do you want to get well?” What is our true desire? Perhaps it is opening ourselves to this deepest desire that God really speaks to within us.

I was confused about the mat dilemma, but learned that carrying the mat would be akin to working on the Sabbath, and thus breaking a rule. However, it was a man-made rule, and did not recognize the need of the individual. Focus on arbitrary rules may hinder our ability to focus on God. This and so many other rules have simply become barriers and distractions between us and knowing God. I remember my early years growing up in an Episcopal church, where females were required to have their heads covered. What we wore on our heads was about fashion, and proved to be a real distraction to spiritual focus.

When Jesus said “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working,” I was very touched. We don’t stop working (to be helpful) on the Sabbath, nor does God. Also, in this statement, Jesus identifies himself with God. Godly works are done through us, with us.

Take Up Your Mat and Walk (David's Comments on John 5:1-18)

The two things I bring to this story are the Stages of Change Model used in psycho-educational counselling and an awareness of how this healing story maps to the politics of Jesus' situation.

Stages of change model is used a lot in addictions work. Its all about the processes we go through in making a change in our lives. Built into the model is the need to practice (maintenance) the change and the potential for backsliding or returning to the previous ways of being.

Jesus' words map onto the model quite well. Do you want to be healed? And then take up your mat and walk. And then later do not sin unless something worse happens.

But it seems strange to apply that model to a healing. Isn't the healing an act of divine mercy? How responsible are we for our own disease dis-ease and disability?

That's where the politics comes in. The people of Israel were ready to believe that the Roman occupation was a result of their sin. Reading the book of Deuteronomy would have taught them that interpretation. And it was out that expectation that ultra-purity folks like the Pharisees and the Essenes (and the preaching of John the Baptist) gained their social power.

Like his nation the disabled man is oppressed. His body has no freedom of movement just as occupied Judea has no freedom. He awaits the cleansing of the waters just John the Baptist and his followers do just as the Pharisees and Essenes and other sects rely on purification.

Jesus locates healing and change within him. Divine power empowers rather than imposes yet another oppressive order of power atop of the power structures already there. And in so doing he ires those who sought salvation in increasing the restrictions and burdens. The man was freed not only of his illness but of the Sabbath injunction. A threat to the power-base of the Pharisees who now seek to kill him.